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The Bible, Jesus and God - (we cant just go making things up)? a discussion

post #1 of 254
1/16/10 at 5:30am
Thread Starter 
During many of these discussions regarding religion or God, I think most of us have more or less come to the conclusion that even if you dont believe in God, the possibily does exist. (even though many of you have the odds of this very low)

Now, I thought we should have a discussion on something Ive heard from Jaz and a couple of other people bring up. That even if God does exist we can't just go and make up the parameters of that existence, example, monothiest God, Jesus is son of God, or that God intervenes in lives upon request, or The Bible Itself.

I dont want to beat a dead horse, I guess Im a little bored, but I dont really have a good answer to this question or comment. Why do I as a Christian believe what I believe? I mean am I taking the word from another who claims to have a legitimate experience, or have I experienced something that tells me God exists? Or am I just wanting to believe?

The more knowledge about the universe I learn, I actually believe more and more in the probabilty of God. I mean what ever the bible says really could be true. Why couldnt it? So, just assuming that we debators are in a scientific deadlock, whats everyone's answer to the comment "Even if God exists, you cant just go making up the facts."

Im trying to avoid a scientific debate on this one. Whether we make this about faith, experience or something Im just not thinking about, Id like to hear what people have to say.
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post #2 of 254
1/16/10 at 5:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BranRx View Post
Im trying to avoid a scientific debate on this one. Whether we make this about faith, experience or something Im just not thinking about, Id like to hear what people have to say.
As much as it is a difficulty to remove "faith" from the debate, it is as difficult to remove "science" from the debate.
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post #3 of 254
1/16/10 at 5:43am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmm...Jaz View Post
As much as it is a difficulty to remove "faith" from the debate, it is as difficult to remove "science" from the debate.
Well one of the reasons Id like to take science of the debate is because science is constantly advancing, and or evolving. Seriously, 15 years ago, science was a much more difficult subject for me and God, because evolution made the most sense to me and I didnt know anything about multi dimensions, string theory, etc etc. I do believe in evolution or at least to a degree but for the most part I think we just assign values to what we percieve and call it reality. Anyway, we have plenty of scientific threads on the subject , I just wanted to take a more "socrates" approach if you will.
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post #4 of 254
1/16/10 at 5:49am
Alright this thread needs to hault. If it's anything your mother ever taught you how to be gentleman in socializing it was never to challange a mans faith.
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post #5 of 254
1/16/10 at 6:01am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Booyah View Post
Alright this thread needs to hault. If it's anything your mother ever taught you how to be gentleman in socializing it was never to challange a mans faith.
Lol. Part of the discussion. Having strong faith gives your life an anchor that cant be swayed by the strong currents.
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post #6 of 254
1/16/10 at 6:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmm...Jaz View Post
As much as it is a difficulty to remove "faith" from the debate, it is as difficult to remove "science" from the debate.
Not really. While I do believe in God and that He is head honcho supreme I figure that He pushed the start button and now sits back and watches the show. A little direct involvement when humans get too stupid but mostly letting us find our way to Him.



Good Luck
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post #7 of 254
1/16/10 at 6:09am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TNTrader View Post
Not really. While I do believe in God and that He is head honcho supreme I figure that He pushed the start button and now sits back and watches the show. A little direct involvement when humans get too stupid but mostly letting us find our way to Him.



Good Luck
Do you believe in the power of prayer? In other words, does praying actually do something supernatural. For example, I once read a study about masses of people praying for one particular thing like less crime and the rate of crime actually declining. If this is real is it God, good energy or coincidence?
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post #8 of 254
1/16/10 at 11:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Booyah View Post
Alright this thread needs to hault. If it's anything your mother ever taught you how to be gentleman in socializing it was never to challange a mans faith.
You're obviously new to the forum, so welcome. Having said that, join the fun!

So why does Bran believe in God, and Gen1GT doesn't? I think there are at least two reasons:

1. Gen1GT is extremely self-assured. I've been through a lot of crap in my life, and discovered early on that I have to count on myself for my own happiness. I have zero reliance on need to assurance from outside sources. I don't need to know that other persons love me, I don't need to know what happens after I die, and I'm happy knowing I'll never see my loved ones again after they die.

2. Bran was raised by a religious family, associates with religious folk and lives in a highly religious country. You receive daily affirmation for your beliefs, and I have a feeling that Bran would let a lot of people down if he stoppped believing.

Bran, answer this question honestly; are there a lot of people in your life that would be disappointed if they found out you were an atheist?
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post #9 of 254
1/16/10 at 12:53pm
Maybe people have a psychological need to look for something greater than themselves.

And we have a tendancy to reinforce what we believe. If a person goes to church it helps to reinforce his belief in a "God". If a person does not believe in a "God" , his views are reinforced by just about everything in our secuar society.

We also have a conception of what is right and what is wrong. Whether this is natural or whether it is conditioned in us can be debated, but it is there.

So,what do we do about this? How about a rule of law. Let the Buddist, Moslem, Jew, and others worship as they see fit, under the law of men, because we all know that man exists. Tolerence is the key in my mind.

Does prayer work? In the religious mind, yes. In the atheists mind, I doubt it.

In conclusion... I am just pumped up on hopeium...and I like it.
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post #10 of 254
1/16/10 at 6:42pm
Has anyone watched this?




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post #11 of 254
1/16/10 at 6:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Booyah View Post
Has anyone watched this?
Yes. I have.
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post #12 of 254
1/16/10 at 6:56pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gen1GT View Post
You're obviously new to the forum, so welcome. Having said that, join the fun!

So why does Bran believe in God, and Gen1GT doesn't? I think there are at least two reasons:

1. Gen1GT is extremely self-assured. I've been through a lot of crap in my life, and discovered early on that I have to count on myself for my own happiness. I have zero reliance on need to assurance from outside sources. I don't need to know that other persons love me, I don't need to know what happens after I die, and I'm happy knowing I'll never see my loved ones again after they die.

2. Bran was raised by a religious family, associates with religious folk and lives in a highly religious country. You receive daily affirmation for your beliefs, and I have a feeling that Bran would let a lot of people down if he stoppped believing.

Bran, answer this question honestly; are there a lot of people in your life that would be disappointed if they found out you were an atheist?
lol, my parents never went to church so no I wasnt religeous. I am nowhere near what you think I am based on what you just wrote. I dont go to church , I dont pray daily.

and based on what you wrote about yourself I dont honestly think you have searched or are open to searching for spirituality or God. Which is fine, just a little close minded in my opinion. If you are happy being a bird that chooses not to fly but walk the earth so be it
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post #13 of 254
1/16/10 at 8:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BranRx View Post
and based on what you wrote about yourself I dont honestly think you have searched or are open to searching for spirituality or God. Which is fine, just a little close minded in my opinion. If you are happy being a bird that chooses not to fly but walk the earth so be it
That statement, IMO, is also closed minded. There are things certainly we should have an open mind about, and things we should disregard as fantasy. Why must we supposedly have an "open mind" about religion, specifically God, and not have an open mind about hobgoblins, or fairies, or minotaurs, or unicorns, or Krakens, or Medusas, or Santa Clause?

If one is demanded to have an open mind that there is a possibility that God exists, should not be the same demanded to those who would believe that God exists to keep an open mind to the possibility that God does not exist?
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post #14 of 254
1/16/10 at 8:27pm
GEN you anaylsis is so incorrect all i can do is laugh.
Like your better than the other peons on the planet? Your sooo self assured, well we will see when the last moments are knocking at your door.. I dont care how strong a person is to their atheist or agnostic beliefs which i am a part of, but come on, there always is a thought and its due to human nature, and perhaps something we dont understand. Look at warriors in battle, or just someone who is towards the end of their life,.... either on their own or automatic in the mind, people assess their lives and have thoughts... in the end its so easy to talk when your young and have beliefs, but those beliefs come back around later in life.

I wouldnt say why someone believes and why someone doesnt, its their upbringing which determines that and inst always rooted in family influence.
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post #15 of 254
1/16/10 at 9:04pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmm...Jaz View Post
That statement, IMO, is also closed minded. There are things certainly we should have an open mind about, and things we should disregard as fantasy. Why must we supposedly have an "open mind" about religion, specifically God, and not have an open mind about hobgoblins, or fairies, or minotaurs, or unicorns, or Krakens, or Medusas, or Santa Clause?

If one is demanded to have an open mind that there is a possibility that God exists, should not be the same demanded to those who would believe that God exists to keep an open mind to the possibility that God does not exist?
Santa Clause and Faires were created with the intent to entertain, not take seriously. Just like Star Wars and Star Trek. The question is, "Does this God that they speak up, whom they claim gives them strength and answers their personal calls, exist". Maybe we should investigate on a personal level, not on just a scientific level.

And Im opened minded, Im not sure why you would think Im not.
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post #16 of 254
1/16/10 at 9:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BranRx View Post
Santa Clause and Faires were created with the intent to entertain, not take seriously.
I actually would disagree with this, the Santa Clause part. I only think that modern generations view Santa Clause as something that entertains because of how commercial Christmas has become, geared towards consumerism. Hundreds of years ago, though, when Santa Clause was passed on in stories and what not (remember that he's based on an actual saint), it was done so as a means of a carrot and stick. Children were coerced into believing that Santa was real, and that he was all-knowing and knew when you were good or bad. Be good and Santa will bring you toys, be bad and Santa will bring you nothing, or coals. So it was a method of behavioral control. Very much like the stories and anecdotes of the Bible were used, a method of behavioral control.
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post #17 of 254
1/17/10 at 2:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjoke View Post
GEN you anaylsis is so incorrect all i can do is laugh.
Like your better than the other peons on the planet? Your sooo self assured, well we will see when the last moments are knocking at your door.. I dont care how strong a person is to their atheist or agnostic beliefs which i am a part of, but come on, there always is a thought and its due to human nature, and perhaps something we dont understand. Look at warriors in battle, or just someone who is towards the end of their life,.... either on their own or automatic in the mind, people assess their lives and have thoughts... in the end its so easy to talk when your young and have beliefs, but those beliefs come back around later in life.

I wouldnt say why someone believes and why someone doesnt, its their upbringing which determines that and inst always rooted in family influence.
Don't worry, I get these comments all the time. People can't stand the fact that other people can cope better than them; especially if they can cope with fewer resources.

I have zero desire to normalize myself and align with everyone else. Yes, I wonder about things I don't understand, but it doesn't involve what happens after I die. My wonder is in questions like, "what is life like on other planets?" and "if energy is being removed from water, where does the force come from for it to expand as it freezes?"

You on the other hand, want to choose to be in awe of something you will never know the answer to. So my analysis may be incorrect, but my description of myself remains the same. I need nothing in the world but myself. But you know what that means? When you need nothing, everything more than nothing is GRAVY!
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post #18 of 254
1/17/10 at 3:22am
I believe for several reasons...and none of them are because I'm too weak to endure without brainwashing myself. I do know several people who fit into that category though but atheists need to understand that not every believer is like that.

I prayed for many things over the years and feel the prayers were answered. I could never make non-believers understand or believe me but thats not my problem. One specific prayer was when I was 16 and just started driving. I went way out in the boon-docks to go fishing. Me and a friend hiked for a couple miles back to the car in the dark and we were starving and tired. About 50 yards from the car I realized I locked the keys in the car..Oh man I thought we were screwed so I prayed for a way out. When I got to the car sure enough the doors were locked and the keys inside. When I walked around to the driver side door I found that when I rolled up the window it rolled up crooked somehow and there was a gap I could fit my arm through. Never seen a car window do that before or since.
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post #19 of 254
1/17/10 at 3:43am
Well, I will give a challenge, Bran. Simply admit that you will have an open mind about God; commit to attempting prayer and try reading the Bible a little bit and see if God doesn't reveal himself to you.

In my experience, there are generally 2 responses to this challenge. People will either refuse to do it (for whatever reason) or they end up having their lives changed forever.

That's the beauty of it; I don't have to "convince" you, I leave that up to Him.
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post #20 of 254
1/17/10 at 5:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by 22rowdy View Post

In my experience, there are generally 2 responses to this challenge. People will either refuse to do it (for whatever reason) or they end up having their lives changed forever.
Hasn't anyone given a third reply where they have read it and they don't believe it?
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