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Doctor says near-death experiences are in the mind

post #1 of 175
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Doctor says near-death experiences are in the mind

updated 10:04 a.m. EDT, Fri October 16, 2009

NEWTON, Massachusetts (CNN) -- For Laura Geraghty, April 1, 2009, started out just as any other day. It was sunny but cool, she remembers.



The mother of two, also a grandmother, was at her job, driving a school bus for the Newton Public School District in suburban Boston, Massachusetts.

Her passengers, special-needs children, were wheelchair-bound.

Seemingly in good health and in good spirits, Geraghty was finishing up her late-morning run, transporting a student and teacher back to Newton South High School, when she realized she was in trouble.

As she was pulling into the school parking lot, she began having sharp stomach pains. She was able to park her bus, but she kept feeling worse.

The pain "went right up my arm and into my chest, and I said, 'Uh-oh, I'm having a heart attack,' " she said.

The teacher ran from the bus to get help. Newton South's nurse, Gail Kramer, and CPR instructor Michelle Coppola arrived moments later with the school's new automated external defibrillator.

Geraghty, barely conscious, was fading fast. She was weak and having trouble breathing. And then she went into full cardiac arrest.

"Her eyes were wide, and all of a sudden she stopped talking to us," Coppola said. "I grabbed the two pads, stuck them on her, started it up, and I'd say within 20 seconds, she had her first shock."

Coppola and Kramer performed CPR while they waited for paramedics.

See an expert give a quick lesson in CPR »

At that point, Geraghty says, her body died. She remembers watching the scene unfold -- as if from above.

"I floated right out of my body. My body was here, and I just floated away. I looked back at it once, and it was there."

Geraghty says she saw deceased loved ones, her mother and her ex-husband.

"It was very peaceful and light and beautiful. And I remember like, when you see someone you haven't seen in a while, you want to hug them, and I remember trying to reach out to my ex-husband, and he would not take my hand. And then they floated away."

Next, she says, she was overwhelmed by "massive energy, powerful, very powerful energy."

"When that was happening, there were pictures of my son and my daughter and my granddaughter, and every second, their pictures flashed in my mind, and then I came back."

What Geraghty had was a near-death experience, fairly common in people who go into sudden cardiac arrest.

Geraghty was down for 57 minutes. No blood pressure, no pulse, no oxygen, no blood flow. She was shocked 21 times before she finally came back with tales of the afterlife.

According to the Near Death Experience Research Foundation, nearly 800 near-death experiences happen every day in the United States.

Dr. Kevin Nelson, a neurologist in Louisville, Kentucky, studies near-death experiences and says they're not imagined. The explanation, he says, lies in the brain itself.

"These are real experiences. And they're experiences that happen at a time of medical crisis and danger," Nelson said.

Humans have a lot of reflexes that help keep us alive, part of the "fight or flight" response that arises when we're confronted with danger.

CONT...
post #2 of 175
Thread Starter 
CONT...

Nelson thinks that near-death experiences are part of the dream mechanism and that the person having the experience is in a REM, or "rapid eye movement," state.

"Part of our 'fight or flight' reflexes to keep us alive includes the switch into the REM state of consciousness," he said.

During REM sleep, there is increased brain activity and visual stimulation. Intense dreaming occurs as a result.

And the bright light so many people claim to see?

"The activation of the visual system caused by REM is causing the bright lights," Nelson said.

And the tunnel people speak of, he says, is lack of blood flow to the eye. "The eye, the retina of the eye, is one of the most exquisitely sensitive tissues to a loss of blood flow. So when blood flow does not reach the eye, vision fails, and darkness ensues from the periphery to the center. And that is very likely causing the tunnel effect."

Nelson is doing studies now to prove that the same effect results from fainting.

"The most common cause of near-death experience in my research group is fainting. Upwards of 100 million Americans have fainted. That means probably tens of millions of Americans have had these unusual experiences."

But Geraghty says this was no dream. "I know I went someplace else. I know I went someplace else other then here."

Dr. Bill O'Callahan, the emergency room doctor who shocked her back to life, agrees. "Cynics out there would say and agnostics would say that's phenomenon that comes from a dying brain. I think that's hogwash. I firmly believe that people experience these events." Cheating Death: Back from the dead

Bob Schriever, co-founder of the Sudden Cardiac Arrest Association, was refereeing a high school football game seven years ago when he went into cardiac arrest, died and was revived.

He, too, questions the dream explanation. "Why are so many people dreaming the same thing? How can so many people, and there's hundreds of thousands of people who have experienced this, how can we all be dreaming the same thing and describe the exact same thing?"

Schriever says these experiences are so profound that only someone who has gone through them can truly understand.

Seven years later, he is still consumed with his own near-death experience.

"I think about that every morning when I wake up, first thing, during the day, I don't know how many times and every night before I fall asleep. I think about that. People do not understand or appreciate what we go through." Scientist uses poison gas to suspend life

For Geraghty, it's a daily struggle to put the pieces back together again.

"I've been someplace that not everybody can go, and there's not a lot of people you can sit down and have that conversation with," Geraghty said. "My own daughter tells me, 'It's freaky, Mom.' I've literally lost friends over this the minute they hear it." Tweet your own experience and you could win a copy of "Cheating Death"

Geraghty says she became depressed once she left the hospital because her perspective on her entire life changed. She still gets depressed, she says, and is on medication.

"I actually went to my doctor and said to her, 'I think I'm losing my mind. This can't be really happening,' you know, and she said it's OK, it's very hard to understand when you've been through an experience like that."

Geraghty has joined the cardiac arrest group, hoping that connecting with others who understand what she's been through will allow her to come to terms with what happened to her that cool spring day six months ago. And allow her to heal and move on.
post #3 of 175
57 minutes! thats crazy that she came back and is completely fine now...the scientific evidence about this seems reasonable but ive heard/read stories of people who can give detailed facts about what was going on around them during their experience..im not sure how that could be explained scientifically because if youre out then shouldnt you have no knowledge of (what/who/where) during that time?
post #4 of 175
If you're out-of-body, and you're not conscious then how are you recording and remembering this experience to share with others when you have no brain? How are any of these people seeing anything without eyes. It would seem that these experiences must be some effect of a dying brain, because without that brain, the necessary systems aren't there to process and record any experience whatsoever. I have difficulty believing in the concept of a "soul"... how is this part of you supposed to process any existence? We know what happens when someone loses their sight, their hearing... all of our senses are dependent on the physical body.
post #5 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by enickma View Post
If you're out-of-body, and you're not conscious then how are you recording and remembering this experience to share with others when you have no brain? How are any of these people seeing anything without eyes. It would seem that these experiences must be some effect of a dying brain, because without that brain, the necessary systems aren't there to process and record any experience whatsoever. I have difficulty believing in the concept of a "soul"... how is this part of you supposed to process any existence? We know what happens when someone loses their sight, their hearing... all of our senses are dependent on the physical body.
Are you saying that blind people do not "see" things in their dreams??
post #6 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by enickma View Post
If you're out-of-body, and you're not conscious then how are you recording and remembering this experience to share with others when you have no brain? How are any of these people seeing anything without eyes. It would seem that these experiences must be some effect of a dying brain, because without that brain, the necessary systems aren't there to process and record any experience whatsoever. I have difficulty believing in the concept of a "soul"... how is this part of you supposed to process any existence? We know what happens when someone loses their sight, their hearing... all of our senses are dependent on the physical body.
Not neccesarily...the body processes our senses in forms of electrical impulses--everything from sight to sound to smell and taste--its all electrical when our senses process it--therefore our sensations are all variotions of electrical impulses.. So while in body we may rely upon our physical to create those sensations and electrical impulses--but it does not mean we are dependant only on a physical body to read those electrical disturbances. The body may only be a vessel like a microphone is to a sound wave. However even without the microphone to pick it up, the sound wave still exists and disturbs the air and air pressures and creates a kinetic energy which can be picked up by everything... Since a microphone picks up "generically speaking" sound pressure changes in the air, what is to say if someone leaves their body as an energy that they do not then become part of that energy or mass that exists outside of their body that is in say the air--they just blend or tap into the next available medium. Like when water leaves one glass and goes into another...those molecules then just become part of that everything....thus everything then becomes our 'senses' and we read those 'electrical impulses' and since we are just fresh out of body, we interpret those sensations as sight, sound, smell. feeling etc... We're our own little collection of 'energy' tapping into the energies around us all the time.. Since we are often not out of body for very long we do not have time to disperse into everythiing...so we then gather back to the body and probably bring some other new energies with us which change perspectives..
as often happens to near deathers..

Smoke a J and read this again--it all makes sense man..... j/k...




-w
post #7 of 175
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wolf825 View Post

Smoke a J and read this again--it all makes sense man.....



-w
I thnk it's going to take a little more than that. Maybe some shrooms or LSD, and a defibrillator.
post #8 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by I we Todd did View Post
Are you saying that blind people do not "see" things in their dreams??
Sure they do, but only because they have a brain.
post #9 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by wolf825 View Post
Not neccesarily...the body processes our senses in forms of electrical impulses--everything from sight to sound to smell and taste--its all electrical when our senses process it--therefore our sensations are all variotions of electrical impulses.. So while in body we may rely upon our physical to create those sensations and electrical impulses--but it does not mean we are dependant only on a physical body to read those electrical disturbances. The body may only be a vessel like a microphone is to a sound wave. However even without the microphone to pick it up, the sound wave still exists and disturbs the air and air pressures and creates a kinetic energy which can be picked up by everything... Since a microphone picks up "generically speaking" sound pressure changes in the air, what is to say if someone leaves their body as an energy that they do not then become part of that energy or mass that exists outside of their body that is in say the air--they just blend or tap into the next available medium. Like when water leaves one glass and goes into another...those molecules then just become part of that everything....thus everything then becomes our 'senses' and we read those 'electrical impulses' and since we are just fresh out of body, we interpret those sensations as sight, sound, smell. feeling etc... We're our own little collection of 'energy' tapping into the energies around us all the time.. Since we are often not out of body for very long we do not have time to disperse into everythiing...so we then gather back to the body and probably bring some other new energies with us which change perspectives..
as often happens to near deathers..

Smoke a J and read this again--it all makes sense man..... j/k...




-w
An interesting theory... Were that the case, however, I doubt the out of body perception would take the same form as what our physical senses perceive, and therefore wouldn't be framed in the same context...ie. bright lights, visualizations of loved ones...etc. I'll let ya know if I think of it differently later this evening.
post #10 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by enickma View Post
An interesting theory... Were that the case, however, I doubt the out of body perception would take the same form as what our physical senses perceive, and therefore wouldn't be framed in the same context...ie. bright lights, visualizations of loved ones...etc. I'll let ya know if I think of it differently later this evening.

Well think of it like this....if you get electrical frequency impulses of 12392838 and your brain translates that 12392838 into an image or sound you can identify, and while out of your body you get that same electrical frequency or signal around you of "12392838", your brain if it was still attached would translate that electrical impulse signal as that specific image or a sound--so why would it be different in how your energy would interpret that familiar combination when out of your body..? That your say for the moment when we die our 'energy leaves our body---that 'energy' should or would pecieve that same combination of energy it runs into as anything but that same image or sound we have known or been used to all these years of conditioning with your brain attached? The signal / frequency / wavelengths of energy would be the same...only your location in how you pick it up may be different... Its like thinking about what is in the dark--just because you cannot see those things with the lights out does not mean they are still not there and stilll cannot be run into if you wander around...eh?

If memory or recordings can be fabricated onto a old style plastic tape with ferrous oxide spread out in a combinations to replicate what was recorded to it--why would our 'energies' be any different in interpretations and reading such similarities...?



-w
post #11 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by wolf825 View Post
Not neccesarily...the body processes our senses in forms of electrical impulses--everything from sight to sound to smell and taste--its all electrical when our senses process it--therefore our sensations are all variotions of electrical impulses.. So while in body we may rely upon our physical to create those sensations and electrical impulses--but it does not mean we are dependant only on a physical body to read those electrical disturbances. The body may only be a vessel like a microphone is to a sound wave. However even without the microphone to pick it up, the sound wave still exists and disturbs the air and air pressures and creates a kinetic energy which can be picked up by everything... Since a microphone picks up "generically speaking" sound pressure changes in the air, what is to say if someone leaves their body as an energy that they do not then become part of that energy or mass that exists outside of their body that is in say the air--they just blend or tap into the next available medium. Like when water leaves one glass and goes into another...those molecules then just become part of that everything....thus everything then becomes our 'senses' and we read those 'electrical impulses' and since we are just fresh out of body, we interpret those sensations as sight, sound, smell. feeling etc... We're our own little collection of 'energy' tapping into the energies around us all the time.. Since we are often not out of body for very long we do not have time to disperse into everythiing...so we then gather back to the body and probably bring some other new energies with us which change perspectives..
as often happens to near deathers..

Smoke a J and read this again--it all makes sense man..... j/k...

-w
It's interesting that you bring up electricity. Lots of people experience electrical cracking noise at times just before leaving their body.
post #12 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmm...Jaz View Post
CONT...Nelson thinks that near-death experiences are part of the dream mechanism and that the person having the experience is in a REM, or "rapid eye movement," state.

"Part of our 'fight or flight' reflexes to keep us alive includes the switch into the REM state of consciousness," he said.

During REM sleep, there is increased brain activity and visual stimulation. Intense dreaming occurs as a result.

And the bright light so many people claim to see?

"The activation of the visual system caused by REM is causing the bright lights," Nelson said.

And the tunnel people speak of, he says, is lack of blood flow to the eye. "The eye, the retina of the eye, is one of the most exquisitely sensitive tissues to a loss of blood flow. So when blood flow does not reach the eye, vision fails, and darkness ensues from the periphery to the center. And that is very likely causing the tunnel effect."

Nelson is doing studies now to prove that the same effect results from fainting.

"The most common cause of near-death experience in my research group is fainting.
Upwards of 100 million Americans have fainted. That means probably tens of millions of Americans have had these unusual experiences."

But Geraghty says this was no dream. "I know I went someplace else. I know I went someplace else other then here."

Dr. Bill O'Callahan, the emergency room doctor who shocked her back to life, agrees. "Cynics out there would say and agnostics would say that's phenomenon that comes from a dying brain. I think that's hogwash. I firmly believe that people experience these events." Cheating Death: Back from the dead

Bob Schriever, co-founder of the Sudden Cardiac Arrest Association, was refereeing a high school football game seven years ago when he went into cardiac arrest, died and was revived.

He, too, questions the dream explanation. "Why are so many people dreaming the same thing? How can so many people, and there's hundreds of thousands of people who have experienced this, how can we all be dreaming the same thing and describe the exact same thing?"
I don't think people are dreaming when they leave their bodies. I believe that they are fully conscience. Their physical body may appear to be asleep or in a dream state, but our energy which leaves the body is fully aware.

I wonder what this doctor would have to say about those people who regularly leave their bodies, without the near death experience?
post #13 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Janie View Post
I don't think people are dreaming when they leave their bodies. I believe that they are fully conscience. Their physical body may appear to be asleep or in a dream state, but our energy which leaves the body is fully aware.

I wonder what this doctor would have to say about those people who regularly leave their bodies, without the near death experience?
He'd say they don't, stop taking drugs and instead, live in the real world.
post #14 of 175
I do not know what to think on this issue. On one hand I believe in God/afterlife. But on the other I know people are generally stupid and make up all kinds of crap while they are in full control..so who knows what their brain is "thinking" when it gets no blood LOL.
post #15 of 175
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baggi View Post
He'd say they don't, stop taking drugs and instead, live in the real world.
HA!
post #16 of 175
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Janie View Post
I don't think people are dreaming when they leave their bodies. I believe that they are fully conscience. Their physical body may appear to be asleep or in a dream state, but our energy which leaves the body is fully aware.

I wonder what this doctor would have to say about those people who regularly leave their bodies, without the near death experience?
Hogwash I say!
post #17 of 175
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigcat View Post
I do not know what to think on this issue. On one hand I believe in God/afterlife. But on the other I know people are generally stupid and make up all kinds of crap while they are in full control..so who knows what their brain is "thinking" when it gets no blood LOL.
It would seem to me, that if we had a "soul", like so many people claim, that is independent of our body and mind, then we could also exist independent of our body during any moment of our choosing...why would we have a "soul" and have no access to it until after death?
post #18 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmm...Jaz View Post
It would seem to me, that if we had a "soul", like so many people claim, that is independent of our body and mind, then we could also exist independent of our body during any moment of our choosing...why would we have a "soul" and have no access to it until after death?

Consider this: if the soul is a different vessel then what we are now--then yes the argument of why can't we access it right now makes sense. But now flip that around--if the body is just the vessel and WE, as in our thinking reasoning understanding comprehending personality and all that makes us different and unique and individual, was the 'soul', then we would be already accessing it and it would be our body that is what we cannot separate to a degree. Its like being in a car or wrapped up in a space suit. Like a chicken that does not leave its egg shell until ready, or a moth that does not leave its cocoon until ready or mature, a similar rationality here could apply in how we look at things...

Just cause we sit in and drive a car around does not mean that a car is the only way for us to get around and is all we can expect for travel--some may not have just decided or noticed the door/window to stop and get out yet..

Also keep in mind--I'm agnostic...I don't buy into religions or god or all that crap...but I do think and believe there is more to us then meets the eye or that we can comprehend fully. Since our bodys are all exactly the same in design and build you would think we would all react and be the same but we're not--we're all this unique warring chasm of complexity and personality and understanding that makes each person who they are. No one can 'Frankenstein' together a physical body and make them 'alive' with personality and unique human traits, and not without that 'spark' that is our essence of 'us' as individuals.. Someone may be able to keep the physical body alive or flowing with all its fluids, but they can't fill it into 'being' something more. If we were just a brain--then anyone could build a person and connect the dots to eventually make one 'work' or just be able to sustain someone indefinitely with replacement parts, but they can't do that.. Why does a perfectly fine body DIE when it has been without oxygen or been traumatized, and yet when repaired or that oxygen is restored, doctors may be able to get the body functions going, but the essence that was in that body is gone--why is that---if all we are is a brain and body that is working? People can be brain dead but their body still works with help of machines...their body is just fine but there is nothing in that brain that was that person--where did it go? It should not have gone anywhere if the physical is all we are...no?

That 'life force' of ours eludes explanation.. That 'spark' or essence has to be something else that is beyond our physical brain and body...that is what I would consider in possibility as being the 'soul'...


Just IMO of course... (I love discussions like this)

-w
post #19 of 175
Thread Starter 
Just because we don't currently understand something, doesn't mean there's something mystical about it's existence. I'm not talking mystical in the sense that there's a "God" that willed everything into existence, but I'm referring to that "life force" that you Wolf, and other's have eluded to. I personally would like to believe it myself, but until there is proof of it, I reject it. I stay open to the POSSIBILITY of it. But anyone can come up with theory. What you and other's are doing is subscribing to that theory, adding to and rejecting what makes sense to you personally.

It's easy, and fun to a degree I admit, to come up with these analogies of "vehicles" and that's all our body is. To me, however, there is not an existence without our "vehicle", which is our body. We need it as a whole to exist, even if it is not functioning properly. Which is why paraplegics can still talk, think, and imagine. Remove the head from the body, and it can no longer function. Perhaps someday in the future we can artificially sustain a decapitated head by supplying blood and oxygen to the brain through artificial means, but I am skeptical.

I know there is the whole quantum reality concept, and that energy exists on every level including the quantum realm, never being able to be destroyed, just transferred. But that doesn't mean that energy is sentient. I like to imagine that our energy, "soul" if you will, as being thought energy that can exist outside of our body and can pass from our reality to another. But it is my imagination only, and I accept that. I do not delude myself into thinking that what I imagine can be and is the truth in reality. Just like I will not delude myself into believing there is an omnipotent God.

Referring to the body dying reference, and the "essence" of a person not being there when the body is revived from trauma. Actually fairly easy to address. I mean, you refer to the brain being deprived of oxygen, and that's the key. Cells are destroyed and thus the connections from one cell to another. So part of the cognitive process has been compromised. No person who has been traumatized, that is has died and come back or severely physically hurt by an accident or some such, comes back the same. That's true either physically or mentally. A leg is broken during a car accident. There will always be something wrong with it, no matter how well the surgeon worked on it. Same as the brain after severe oxygen deprivation. It's just not the same. Thus the person is not the same. Speaking of which, after a physical accident or trauma, the person is mentally not the same either, because that experience has changed their perception and attitude about things. Either they've developed a phobia of flying after a plane crash, or won't trust anyone else driving a car after having been a passenger in a car accident. Stuff like that. A person cannot be the same after a traumatic experience, and therefor has nothing to do with the idea that we have a "soul", which is just another argument in my mind that it does not exist.
post #20 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmm...Jaz View Post
Just because we don't currently understand something, doesn't mean there's something mystical about it's existence. I'm not talking mystical in the sense that there's a "God" that willed everything into existence, but I'm referring to that "life force" that you Wolf, and other's have eluded to. I personally would like to believe it myself, but until there is proof of it, I reject it. I stay open to the POSSIBILITY of it. But anyone can come up with theory. What you and other's are doing is subscribing to that theory, adding to and rejecting what makes sense to you personally.

It's easy, and fun to a degree I admit, to come up with these analogies of "vehicles" and that's all our body is. To me, however, there is not an existence without our "vehicle", which is our body. We need it as a whole to exist, even if it is not functioning properly. Which is why paraplegics can still talk, think, and imagine. Remove the head from the body, and it can no longer function. Perhaps someday in the future we can artificially sustain a decapitated head by supplying blood and oxygen to the brain through artificial means, but I am skeptical.

I know there is the whole quantum reality concept, and that energy exists on every level including the quantum realm, never being able to be destroyed, just transferred. But that doesn't mean that energy is sentient. I like to imagine that our energy, "soul" if you will, as being thought energy that can exist outside of our body and can pass from our reality to another. But it is my imagination only, and I accept that. I do not delude myself into thinking that what I imagine can be and is the truth in reality. Just like I will not delude myself into believing there is an omnipotent God.
.

Jaz, I'm not at all saying "this is how it is--and I subscribe to it as solid belief" so you should too...this is not something that is faith based or religious or spiritual...and I'm not subscribing to this is how it is and you need to buy it cause "I'm right about this cause I say so"....far from it and just the opposite--I am presenting these ideas to consider to leaving this as an open POSSIBILITY and I was pretty clear that this is nothing more then a possibility. Nothing more. The only thing I subscribe to is that there appears to be more then meets the eye that we can know or comprehend and this can even apply for things that have been proven...especially based on quantum theory's which open widely a lot of possibilities to what could be without any rock solid certainty.

When science can or cannot explain something--I am the last person to dawn a cape and tights and say "Stand Aside SCIENCE, this is a job for Superstition and Mysticism!". Hardly..and you should not look that I am doing that--not my plan or intent or reason to do that ever. I look for possibilities that are rational and reasonable or at the very least plausible or possible and may have at least some scientific backing... I am not mentioning the 'spirit' or some holy dogma concoction that a religious belief will subscribe to....but I do recognize that energy's as you know are often transferable and connecting and continuing as science has proven. If it exists in science one place--it could very well exist in another or universally to a degree. The question is how or how far and why. This again to what I posted is nothing but a possibility for humans--not "this is how it is--believe it or be a fool".. I don't say this is how it is on anything of this level--I say this is a possibility to ponder, think over and consider...just as any good scientific mindset should keep an open mind to possibilities. Until proof is provided there is nothing but speculations and possibilities to discuss.. Thats whats great about theory's...they can get discussed and others can show proof or reasons to why or why not that theory could be true or false...giving room for consideration and plausibility to be reviewed and weighed as more data will eventually come in over time.

It seems you are more defensive to listening to stuff like this as a possibility or plausibility, simply because this could be something that could be defined as a 'mystical' thing..and since you are usually so open minded about many things--including your affirmation which I share that there is no god etc, I find it very confusing to hear from you. That could narrow your perceptions instead of keep them open to the science of understanding... Remember 100 years ago some disease and illness was considered "mystical" for cause or in cure...as evil possession or whatever. Even the existence of Air or a new world was downplayed against dogma's of that time. But there were a few who refused to accept some religious definition as a reality and keep that possibility open...and they were finally able to use proof or science to understand and define and stand by. Same applies for this in this day and age... Our society may be advanced but we are far from 'all knowing' on every level... What some people cannot define they may choose to comfort themselves with religious faith for answers but I discount things like that to imply or force onto other folks to just take on 'faith'... I just present some ideas and theorys as another possibility to ponder..


-w
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