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What Will You Say When You Stand Before God Someday? - Page 9

post #161 of 375
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guapo View Post
Missionsman,

Per your edited post below, yeah, I think just about all religious organizations are the same. Everyone of them I know of lobby for certain laws to be passed, or take actions in other ways to limit my freedoms by pushing their agendas onto the entire population. Guapo
Do you also mean the ACLU and other groups also? These other groups are trying to limit our freedoms also.

These groups are all made up of what? People. People
People with beliefs.

I just saw the movie Amazing Grace and one of the greatest parts imo was when William Wilberforce stood in Parlament to work to abolish British slave trade and said:

"You can shout as loud as you want but you cannot drown out the voice of the people."


If you've not seen that movie, it is awesome! It just came out on DVD now.
post #162 of 375
Quote:
Originally Posted by Missionsman View Post
4. Thomas Jefferson wrote this phrase, "thus building a wall of separation between church and State...." on January 1, 1802, (11 years after the First Amendment was ratified) in a private letter to the Danbury Baptist Association to assure them that the federal government could not and would not try to establish a national denomination. Jefferson was an ambassador in France during the time of the Constitutional Convention. However, while President of the United States, Thomas Jefferson was
also made president of the Washington, DC public school system in which he placed the Bible and the Isaac Watt's hymnal as the two primary reading texts! Jefferson's phrase was used only twice by the U.S. Supreme Court from 1802 to 1947; and it was not until 1947 (Everson case) that it was taken out of context and given a meaning never intended (first use was 1878 in Reynolds case).


For this subject go over to this link. I posted some more info on this today.

http://www.hotstockmarket.com/forums...ml#post1508467
Jefferson was very clear in his belief that religion is a very private matter. It has therefore not been taken out of context by the Supreme Court.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas Jefferson
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.
The Bible already was the primary text in the West, well before Thomas Jefferson was alive. Nearly all of the American population of the time was Christian, and especially, I imagine, in the DC area. It seems, however, that so early in the history of this country, Christians were more apt to question atheists than demonize them.

Thomas Jefferson was undoubtedly deist, and evidence such as the following quote suggests that he was even a tad agnostic.
Quote:
Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.
America is a nation of Christians, to be sure, but it has never been a decidedly Christian nation.
post #163 of 375
Missonsman,

We've been talking about religion and churches but you're correct. I mentioned this in an earlier post, all bureaucratic organizations push their agendas on the entire population, sometimes with good results, sometimes not.

Obviously some people and organizations do good work. The example in the movie you cited below for example,.

In your example however those groups were working toward righting a specific wrong which could be clearly defined. With churches however, their goal is to increase their membership as much as they can - convert people to their religion. In past times when churches had control of governments, in bed with them or were the government, they went to extreme lengths to convert folks to their religion. Read your history.

All I'm saying is if churches want to do good work, that's great but don't force me to join your church or coerce me to pay homage to your god because you think it's the right thing to do.

What if a church that had its services on Wednesdays became sufficiently powerful to force a law through the Congress making it illegal to worship except on Wednesdays? How would you feel about that?

Please don't reply that such a thing couldn't happen since we live in a free country. That's simply avoiding the question.

Guapo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Missionsman View Post
Do you also mean the ACLU and other groups also? These other groups are trying to limit our freedoms also.

These groups are all made up of what? People. People
People with beliefs.

I just saw the movie Amazing Grace and one of the greatest parts imo was when William Wilberforce stood in Parlament to work to abolish British slave trade and said:

"You can shout as loud as you want but you cannot drown out the voice of the people."

If you've not seen that movie, it is awesome! It just came out on DVD now.
post #164 of 375
Thread Starter 
Jesus warned of the subtle enemy that we would forever encounter...religion!

"Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees. Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees." Matthew 16:6&12.
The leaven of the Pharisees was the doctrinal concepts of God that had grown out of a religious system of thought that was totally controlling; built on wrong concepts of God; devoid of the love of God and rendered men powerless. The word leaven comes from a Greek word that could be translated as teaching. The leaven of the Pharisees was seen in what they believed, what they taught, how they treated people and how they represented God.
Leaven is used to describe the Kingdom of God, hypocrisy and religion. But in each case there is one constant concept. Leaven is something very small that once introduced into any environment, it works its way through the entire situation. "A little leaven leavens the whole lump." Galatians 5:9.
Religion is a deadly, subtle leaven that when left alone will work its way through every aspect of our relationship with God and leave us powerless. John Osteen used to say, "Religion is like a vaccine. It gives you just enough to make you immune to the real thing." And that’s exactly what happens. Religion looks honorable. It is always an accepted part of our culture. It isn’t too radical. It talks about God and Jesus. But in the end, it is a deadly, destructive bacteria that brings about self-destruction.
In Galatians 5:4-8, Paul woefully pointed out how those believers had fallen to a place where Christ was not effective in their life. They were powerless. They had left the realm of grace. "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you. A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump."
Men have always wanted religion more than they wanted God. It started in the Garden of Eden when Adam decided he would be the God of his own world. It was sustained by Cain when he killed Abel. It was perfected by the Jews. And it reached its pinnacle when it crucified Jesus.
Paul reminded us in Galatians that the children of the flesh always have and always will persecute the children of the Spirit. That is one of the key characteristics of religion, it cannot allow you to believe what you believe. You either believe what it believes or it sets out to destroy you.
Religion is always about performance; it glorifies man and his efforts. True Christianity is about relationship. It is always emphasizing what God has done. It glorifies God and His finished work in Jesus. Religion is about doing. Christianity is about being. Religion finds its strength in performing. Christianity finds its strength in believing. Religion gets security from the groups agreement. Christianity gets its security from Jesus.
Religion has a "victims mentality." The moment it is revealed it screams and accuses you of persecuting it. Even Jesus faced this same accusation. Luke 11:45-46, in The Message Bible says, "One of the religion scholars spoke up: ‘Teacher, do you realize that in saying these things you’re insulting us?’ He said, ‘Yes, and I can be even more explicit. You’re hopeless, you religion scholars! You load people down with rules and regulations, nearly breaking their backs, but never lift even a finger to help.’"
Religion is like the politician who supports the killing of babies, take healthcare away from the sick, loads the poor with taxes, starts wars for economic or political motives then accuses you of conspiring to persecute them because you point out their track record.
Jesus said it so well in John 5:39-44, "You have your heads in your Bibles constantly because you think you’ll find eternal life there. But you miss the forest for the trees. These Scriptures are all about me! And here I am, standing right before you, and you aren’t willing to receive from me the life you say you want. ‘I’m not interested in crowd approval. And do you know why? Because I know you and your crowds. I know that love, especially God’s love, is not on your working agenda. I came with the authority of my Father, and you either dismiss me or avoid me. If another came, acting self-important, you would welcome him with open arms. How do you expect to get anywhere with God when you spend all your time jockeying for position with each other, ranking your rivals and ignoring God?’" TMB
post #165 of 375
Thread Starter 
Look at the differences between Jesus and Religion


Jesus - Religion
Easy and light - Hard and heavy
No condemnation - Kill her
Freedom - Bondage
Be it - Do it
Be made whole - You are unclean
I make you perfect - You are not good enough
What can I give you - What can you give me
Peace - Trouble
What’s right with you - What’s wrong with you
You are righteous - Earn your righteousness
Forgive - Eye for and eye
Bring the children - Too young
Believe - Work
Proclaim - Explain
It is finished - It is never enough
You are holy - You are unworthy
I am the way - We are the way
Friend of sinners - Enemy of sinners
Judge not - Judge and destroy
Do not conform - Look like us
post #166 of 375
Thread Starter 
Faith is, without a doubt, one of the most important topics in the Bible. We are saved by faith. We walk by faith. All that God has for us is only experienced through faith. It is through faith that we can even know God.

Faith believes that God is and that He is the rewarder of those that diligently seek Him. "But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." Hebrews 11:6.

Why is faith so essential to God? Simple! Faith is a response of trust. Trust is essential for all healthy relationships. God’s goal for mankind is to have a loving, trusting relationship. Trust is just one of many responses we could have toward a person. But trust more than anything else, is a key indicator of how we view the character of God. Our confidence in what He has said is the pivotal point of our relationship. Without trust there can be no real relationship.
By grace ( God's ability) you are saved through faith. ( trust in what He has already done).
post #167 of 375
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guapo View Post
Missonsman,

We've been talking about religion and churches but you're correct. I mentioned this in an earlier post, all bureaucratic organizations push their agendas on the entire population, sometimes with good results, sometimes not.

Obviously some people and organizations do good work. The example in the movie you cited below for example,.

In your example however those groups were working toward righting a specific wrong which could be clearly defined. With churches however, their goal is to increase their membership as much as they can - convert people to their religion. In past times when churches had control of governments, in bed with them or were the government, they went to extreme lengths to convert folks to their religion. Read your history.

All I'm saying is if churches want to do good work, that's great but don't force me to join your church or coerce me to pay homage to your god because you think it's the right thing to do. I wouldn't do that and strongly believe that no church , denomination or even person should do that! I believe that to much power and authority in the wrong hands can and does corrupt, evn in the church. Thats why even in a solid healthy church power and authority is not given to those under it that are not ready to handle the responsibility. There must be good accountability.


Human nature hasn't changed in the last 2000 years. Actually longer back than that.
I agree with you there totally about human nature hasn't changed! Thats why Jesus said that we must be born again to see the kingdom God. However human nature changes when a person recieves God's Spirit in him. When mans nature is changed, then he changes, but it is from the inside out.


What if a church that had its services on Wednesdays became sufficiently powerful to force a law through the Congress making it illegal to worship except on Wednesdays? How would you feel about that? I wouldn't like it, but i would first want to know the reason they were doing this.I guess i would have to deal with that if and when it came down to it. Thats a great question though. Please don't reply that such a thing couldn't happen since we live in a free country. That's simply avoiding the question.

Guapo
ok
post #168 of 375
Missionsman,

You're guilty as I am of writing long dissertations. So much to say, so little time.

Per your post, link below,

http://www.hotstockmarket.com/forums...5-post165.html

in all honesty, I think you're losing everybody with really long posts like this one. I have no objection of course to your writing them. I don't think many folks are reading them however. To be frank, I'm not.

Guapo
post #169 of 375
Missionsman,

My initial comments are in blue, your replies in red and my replies to you in this post in green. Just read straight down the page.


All I'm saying is if churches want to do good work, that's great but don't force me to join your church or coerce me to pay homage to your god because you think it's the right thing to do.

I wouldn't do that and strongly believe that no church , denomination or even person should do that! I believe that to much power and authority in the wrong hands can and does corrupt, evn in the church. Thats why even in a solid healthy church power and authority is not given to those under it that are not ready to handle the responsibility. There must be good accountability.

I disagree. Just as in any bureaucratic organization, the strong and powerful rise to the top in church organizations and those people are exactly the ones most likely to attempt to persuade or coerce others to their way of thinking. If you don't think so, then you aren't really cognizant of human nature or the mechanisms of social structures. Look at church history for goodness sake, at all the brutality sanctioned and committed by churches in the name of their religion.


What if a church that had its services on Wednesdays became sufficiently powerful to force a law through the Congress making it illegal to worship except on Wednesdays? How would you feel about that?

I wouldn't like it, but i would first want to know the reason they were doing this. I guess i would have to deal with that if and when it came down to it.

I would say the obvious answer is that particular religion wanted to force everybody to adhere to their ideas regarding worship. It wouldn't feel good if you were forced to worship only on Wednesdays, would it? You would raise heck about it if you could.

Let's use another example. Suppose we're on an island retreat, a church group with no police authority or government. There are about 50 of us. I decide the church isn't running the way I think it should be. So some of my henchmen and I take over the island with guns and force everybody else to join my new church. You would object for sure, wouldn't you? Of course you would.

The point is that people don't like anybody else telling them what to do, even less so forcing them to do something against their will. Churches will do exactly that given the power and authority.

Sorry, I have no more faith in the benevolence of churches than you do in faith in Buddhism.


Guapo
post #170 of 375
Missionsman,

What are you saying here, that you believe in Jesus but you're not a member of an organized religion?

Guapo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Missionsman View Post
Look at the differences between Jesus and Religion


Jesus - Religion
Easy and light - Hard and heavy
No condemnation - Kill her
Freedom - Bondage
Be it - Do it
Be made whole - You are unclean
I make you perfect - You are not good enough
What can I give you - What can you give me
Peace - Trouble
What’s right with you - What’s wrong with you
You are righteous - Earn your righteousness
Forgive - Eye for and eye
Bring the children - Too young
Believe - Work
Proclaim - Explain
It is finished - It is never enough
You are holy - You are unworthy
I am the way - We are the way
Friend of sinners - Enemy of sinners
Judge not - Judge and destroy
Do not conform - Look like us
post #171 of 375
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guapo View Post
Hi MrPantaloons,

How ya doing? I hope everything is going well with you. Thanks for your post.

Well, I can't prove to you God doesn't exist just as you can't prove to me he does. We all reach our own conclusions about the existence of God from our personal experiences, thoughts, ideas and sometimes input from others, I suppose.

We can discuss it all day but the bottom line is that belief in God comes down to faith. If you have it and I don't, we can yak-yak at each other till the cows come home and never reach any kind of agreement.

Guapo
Its fun to bicker though aint it? How's it been going buddy?
post #172 of 375
There are NO non believers in hell.
post #173 of 375
It sure is!

I've been doing good? Thanks. How about you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPantaloons View Post
Its fun to bicker though aint it? How's it been going buddy?
post #174 of 375
I thought that's where non-believers went?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dplin2001 View Post
There are NO non believers in hell.
post #175 of 375
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guapo View Post
I thought that's where non-believers went?
Oh you know....once us non-believers are in Hell being tortured for all eternity, THEN we'll believe. Presumably we'll wish we'd worshiped the God who created this ultimate torture chamber while still we'd had the chance.

Poor God...he just wants to love us, but we force him to torture us for all eternity. Again, the Jewish roots of Christianity are not hard to spot.

Of course, there are no Valhalla-disbelievers in Valhalla, and there are no FSM-disbelievers amongst the beer volcanoes and stripper factories in Pastafarian Heaven (or in Pastafarian Hell, where the beer is stale and the strippers have VD).

Hey everybody - I have an untestable premise that you will experience infinite pain unless you embrace my beliefs! Wanna hear all about it?
post #176 of 375
MM
What exactly is a Sin? If we are born into sin--then we are sinners in everything we do...in our eating, in our daily lives..its like taxes--no getting ahead of the game. But it seems to me that some sin is too vague to be defined and too obscure to be held accountable for... This is beyond the obvious ones of lies, murder and stealing and so on...

-w
post #177 of 375
Yeah, that's what Dplin2001 was saying, everybody is converted to a believer in hell. So, after being tortured for thousands of years in hell and ultimately coming to believe, do we get out of hell then? If so, where do we go?

Quote:
Originally Posted by scotchfaster View Post
Oh you know....once us non-believers are in Hell being tortured for all eternity, THEN we'll believe. Presumably we'll wish we'd worshiped the God who created this ultimate torture chamber while still we'd had the chance.

Poor God...he just wants to love us, but we force him to torture us for all eternity. Again, the Jewish roots of Christianity are not hard to spot.

Of course, there are no Valhalla-disbelievers in Valhalla, and there are no FSM-disbelievers amongst the beer volcanoes and stripper factories in Pastafarian Heaven (or in Pastafarian Hell, where the beer is stale and the strippers have VD).

Hey everybody - I have an untestable premise that you will experience infinite pain unless you embrace my beliefs! Wanna hear all about it?
post #178 of 375
we go to spaghetti monster land
post #179 of 375
If there is a god and If it has the unfortunate luck of meeting me, i'd say
"dude that was a really F@!#%d up joke, and now its time for your A$$ beating"
post #180 of 375
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guapo View Post
Missionsman,

What are you saying here, that you believe in Jesus but you're not a member of an organized religion?

Guapo
Gaupo, what is your definition of an organized religion? Do you mean a group like the Baptist, Methodist, Assembly of God, etc?
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