What Will You Say When You Stand Before God Someday? - Page 8

Blooey,

Yes, Jesus was a lot better at it than Missionsman is.

Blooey,

Per an extract of your post below, most of us I think, have nothing better to do.

^

Yikes. So what did we do when we were alive to deserve this?

Incidentally, I'm reminded of a 'This American Life' episode about a preacher who stopped believing in Hell. Give this a listen...click on "Full Episode" to hear it.

http://www.thislife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?episode=304

I have an intimate relationship with my imaginary friend, too.

It seems we have a misunderstanding here of what the flying spaghetti monster really is. FSM is a logic tool designed to inject some humor into the situation as well as make a very complex point. Essentially, much has been written about FSM as it has been about God, and it makes exactly as much sense to credit FSM with the creation of the universe as it does to credit God. Maybe FSM is a demon. You can call him that if you want. Both are imaginary.



There are a few different fallacies in this one. I'll break them up as well as I can at this time at night.

It is safe to say that all gods are idols invented by man. If you had never been told about and had never read or heard a word of the Bible, you would not independently come to the same conclusions in the Bible. I've seen some of your posts about people of different faiths seeing Jesus in dreams and such. These occurrences help your case little, if any. Undoubtedly, if they actually saw the image as Jesus, they have received enough education about Christianity to know that that's who it is. Additionally, it is impossible to know exactly what was imagined in a dream. I could say that I had a dream last night that Lucifer wanted me to come play in the fire with him, but you have no idea what form of demon I really envisioned, and you also have no idea what Lucifer would really look like if he did exist. You also don't know what kind of drugs I took last night before bed. The fact that a few of these people may have decided to be Christian has no weight either, since it happens more often in the reverse direction, both through hallucinations and through reason.

There is no evidence that zombie Jesus ever existed. That is one of many stories in the New Testament that have been conclusively disproved, and not just because it's completely illogical that a person would be re-animated in such a way. I know, that's the point, but the story is older than Christianity and is one of many that are adapted from other religions.

Easter is a celebration of the vernal equinox. Nothing more. Why would you possibly believe otherwise? Rabbits and eggs are obvious signs of fertility, the key point of springtime. Chocolate is the world's most popular aphrodisiac. Even the name isn't far off of the original pagan name for the holiday. The Church did a pretty poor job disguising that pagan holiday for a Christian one. Even Christmas has Christ in it, and it's not related to Christianity either.

I really don't think Shiva will be very happy with you for that one. If you want to see a vengeful god, try one whose name means "the destroyer".


At this point I think you're deliberately missing the point. Jesus is one of many possible answers, and it is impossible to know which one of an infinite selection is the correct one.

Hope all you want. Just don't count on it.

Knowing is such an abstract concept. No, it is not possible to truly know anything except that the thing doing the thinking (you for you, me for me) exists as a thinking thing. Cogito, ergo sum. For that reason and that reason alone, I cannot know that God doesn't exist. I can only use the tools I have to come to that conclusion. I can say with a very high degree of certainty, though, that in the observable world, there is no evidence for God's existence.

I am curious about how old you were when you "received Christ" or however you want to word it. I heard that something like 40% of born-again Christians have their rebirth before they are 13 years of age, in other words, before they are old enough to really make adult decisions. I seem to recall you saying you were in a tough spot before that, so that leads me to believe that you are a part of the other 60 percent or so. I have no point in knowing that about you except for my own curiosity.

I will do part 2 another time.

Scotchfaster,

Maybe by cheating and deliberately and knowingly harming others with our market machinations when we were alive?

In the Christian religion, you would go to hell, probably penny stock hell. In some sects of Buddhism I think it is, you would return as some form of lower life. In this case, probably a market maker (MM).

Guapo

Missionsman,

Reference post: http://www.hotstockmarket.com/forums...2-post130.html

Per the question below from Orangustang and your response, I understand, I think, you're saying Jesus, and not the other prophets you listed below, is the son of God.

But what about Baptist, Pentacostal, Catholic, etc? Are you also saying these religions aren't the correct ones?

Guapo

Missionsman,

OK, thanks for the clarification.

Just to let you know, I have no problems with folks that are religious. Most of my friends are Christians. I have other friends of various Asian religions, having lived a number of years in Asia. We all get along fine. I think they're all wrong but that's just my personal belief or opinion.

However, what I adamantly object to though is organized religions attempting to control or limit my life. Individuals don't do that but organized religions certainly do. They can't do it either without individual members contributing large sums of cash to their churches. So whether you have thought about it or not, your being a Christian imposes on my life, determining choices I may or may not have, for example.

Certain activities which churches believe are forbidden by the teachings of the Bible or are sinful, are denied to other people who don't believe the same way. Examples are the use of alcohol, gambling, prostitution and abortions, to name a few.

I don't want to debate the morality of the above activities. What I am saying is that churches through the exercise of their power have managed in many areas to restrict other peoples' lives, many who would like to have a full range of choices about matters that may affect them.

Is it right that because you believe as you do and join a large number of other people to form an organized religion, and then through your church's political and financial power, (attempt to and often do) force your views on others and restrict their rights?

Perhaps we are speaking of picayune matters in the examples above, but I most assuredly believe churches will gather, hold and exercise as much power as they can. Given or possessing the authority to do so (by whatever means), I firmly believe that churches will go as far as they can to force people to abide by their beliefs. Churches have done so throughout history. They continue to do so today.

The bottom line, in this forum, is that you are voluntarily attempting to persuade us that your religion is the correct one. However, given the authority and power to do so, you - or others of your religion - would hold a gun to our heads to force us to agree with your views.

Now, you yourself may not be that kind of person but every religion has its zealots who are. I believe that as strongly as you believe in your religion.

Guapo

I prefer to thank separation of Church and State.

AMEN to that!!!

Now if we can just work on the separation of industry and state...

Missionsman,

In blue below, no we're not. In some places I can't buy alcohol on Sunday because churches have exerted their influence and power to convince county and state governments to pass laws prohibiting sales of alcohol on that day.

Because of your experiences, you have judged actions as bad (in red below). Because you believe you're right, if I disagree with you, then I must be wrong, and since you are espousing Christian values, it's OK for you to force me to believe, or adhere to your views. That's exactly what churches do if they have the authority and power.

When I say "you" I mean individuals in the church who will at the point of a gun force me to march to their church on Sundays, if they have the authority to do so. You better believe churches will indulge in that kind of behavior if they can get away with it.

For the rest of your post below, I don't recall Jesus telling his followers they should force their beliefs on other people. What I'm saying is that other people will do that if given the chance.

It's not what religion preaches I'm concerned about but what people do in the name of their religion.

Guapo


Guapo, we all here in this wonderful country are given the right to choose.[/B] I believe the word of God says these thing because because God saw and knew the pain and heartache it would cause people who chose to do certain things,[/B] like the ones you mentioned. Have you ever experienced the pain and hurt, the rejection, all kinds of stuff caused by the things mentioned above? Have you ever had a daughter that has had an abortion, and has afterwards struggled with the quilt, shame or whatever she is feeling afterwards? I know that even in divorce or whatever, people have the freedom to choose here in the USA, just because they want to, not because of the things mentioned above. I have seen some of these things happen in my own family, yet i do not condemn them for the choices they make, but when they make those choices that i believe are wrong, i still love them through whatever choices they make. I know most of the time, they feel bad enough for the choices afterwards, so why should i add to their pain? I am guilty of opening up my mouth at times and saying things that have been wrong, because i'm not perfect, don't claim to be and hope that i don't come across as because i'll be the first to tell you that i have faults, but when i see or another might point out where i was wrong, i will humbly tell the person that i'm sorry and ask for them to forgive me. I don't have to do that much any more because i try to be very careful of what i say as not to say anything to hurt others. I will post a link and some info on Jewish Law, so you can see and understand their culture and laws. Then you will be able to relate i think with what Jesus was truly saying in Matthew chapter when He was addressing the people about their speech. I don't want to debate the morality of the above activities. What I am saying is that churches through the exercise of their power have managed in many areas to restrict other peoples' lives, many who would like to have a full range of choices about matters that may affect them.

Is it right that because you believe as you do and join a large number of other people to form an organized religion, and then through your church's political and financial power, (attempt to and often do) force your views on others and restrict their rights? No, it's not right to force your views on people who do not want to hear. I guess we Christians do to that many times.I think in most cases it is because of our zeal, because we what people to experience what we have. However any form or group or church that trys to use force is wrong. Why? Because i don't see Jesus ever teaching that or doing that. God does not force us. He give us a free will to choose. Do you believe if we did all the good things that Jesus did and talked about, this world would be a better place?

Perhaps we are speaking of picayune matters in the examples above, but I most assuredly believe churches will gather, hold and exercise as much power as they can. Given or possessing the authority to do so (by whatever means), I firmly believe that churches will go as far as they can to force people to abide by their beliefs. Churches have done so throughout history. They continue to do so today. Our Church and the ones i know of don't do what you are talking about. People are not forced to go. They are not put under guilt or manipulated by the Pastor to come, to give, etc. I know there are churches out there that like what you mentioned though and i would stay away from them. I also know that there are Churches and ministries that are doing wrong stuff also. My Pastor and his wife has given their lives to help people. I have watched them, talked with them and served with them for about 6 years now. I am truly amazed and their deep love for people and not only our city but the world. I have heard it said. " If your church would have to close it doors tomorrow, what affect would it have on the city?" Many churches out there arn't doing a whole lot for their community. Some are just a small, bless me and my family social club type church. Others are effecting their cities and culture in a positive way.


So am i hearing you correctly Guapo?Are you saying that all churches or religious groups are all the same or all alike If that is what you are saying,imo is called guilt by association


Continued on next post[/QUOTE]

Missionsman,

I know you wouldn't but there are others who will. That's been my point these last few posts - churches will sanction or look the other way when coercion occurs, if they can get away with it. Human nature hasn't changed in the last 2000 years.

You continue to quote scripture, in what I believe is a continuing effort to persuade me to take another look at Christianity. That's OK. I happen to believe, you along with everybody else that believes there is a Christian, Buddhist or any other kind of god are wrong. You won't change my mind on that.

I believe you're wrong, you believe the same about me. There are tons of us on both sides of the question; and it will remain that way forever I think.

Guapo

Ps. I'm not the greatest writer , speller and communicator and i have enjoyed talking with you gentlemen here. If we were in certain countries, under certain religions, we couldn't even do this. Thank God this is a free country.[/QUOTE]

Missionsman,

Per your edited post below, yeah, I think just about all religious organizations are the same. Everyone of them I know of lobby for certain laws to be passed, or take actions in other ways to limit my freedoms by pushing their agendas onto the entire population.

Do churches do that? You bet, all the time.

Guapo

There's as much politics in religion as there are politics in politics.

And here's a choice James Madison quote, in which his understanding of "Separation of Church and State" is consistent with, say, the ACLU:

Is the appointment of Chaplains to the two Houses of Congress consistent with the Constitution, and with the pure principle of religious freedom? In the strictness the answer on both points must be in the negative. The Constitution of the U. S. forbids everything like an establishment of a national religion.

Regardless, I understand that most Americans consider themselves Christians, and that's fine. As long as I can dance around naked in a pentangle and smear my Hilary Clinton idol with goat blood every week, it's no problem to me what others believe (even if I do find human sacrifice and cannibalism distasteful).

However, it's the separation of Church and State that allows us to challenge and change unfair laws. This is not possible under governments that treat scripture as law.