Pro-life or Pro-Choice.. let's argue! - Page 23

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You asked if it was more "humane" to terminate a pregnancy then to impose it into society problems--my view is society has the problem..society is the thing that is messed up to begin with...and some of these kids like ME--well maybe we can change that screwed up society to find a balance... If not--oh well...we'll be the ones smart enough and firm enough to stand thru any man-made adversity and prevail--or at least we'll still be around after the downfall to pick up the pieces and take over.

I think eliminating this abortion bullcrap "dialog" is a key to forcing the sheeple to change and start into a view of self-responsibility for actions and achievements that we outkast kids had to learn..we're not all psycho nutjobs...least not to where we cannot function sanely.. What IS a detriment to society is to have a society where folks think they can get away with bad actions-where folks think they can NOT be responsible for their own actions and have "outs & excuses" for all their problems and doings, rather then step up to the mound and face them and deal with them...THAT is the problem..no one wants to be in any way responsible for anything--they all want to be victims and they all want to have EXCUSES they can keep in their pocket to hand out and excuse their pathetic behavior. "I can't read or write--but its not my fault its the schools...; I shot some guy with a gun during a robbery--but its not my fault cause he resisted and the gun had a hair trigger....; I can't get a good job--but its not my fault its society's for giving me a easier handout...; I want to have reckless unprotected sex without any assumption of responsibility for what may result--but I don't want a kid--so I need an excuse and an OUT to get out of that responsibility too..". WTF is that kind of society?? Is that what you are protecting or want to continue?? People want excuses for their actions like they want a pill from a doctor to cure their woes. What gets me is these abortion whiners are a prime example of not wanting to be responsible human beings or have a strong society...and reproduction is a CORE responsibility..and when a core responsibility is given an excuse to go down the tubes--so does the society we live in. Instead folks twist the issue to have excuses for not dealing with the true topic...like its a "womans right" or its a "moral duty" to life..bullcrap to both...its an excuse made up by rich folks and politicians for making a persons failure to address their personal self-responsibility go away or be eased... Avoiding the main issues--it does nothing to better society in either way to argue the summantics like its a "right to life" or a "right to choose"..its neither...its self responsibility. Thats like PResbeterians and Evangelicals arguing over the ceremonial or interpretational differences of the same religion...thats petty stupidity if you ask me. What betters a society is a persons self responsibility for their own actions and earned achievements in making the structure OF that society strong and united....not in hagving the current weak and wussy world of whiners, complainers and folks looking for excuses to get by and not be responsible for what they do in that society...
-w

In the 41 areas for which race was adequately reported, approximately 55% of women who obtained legal induced abortions were known to be white, 35% were black, and 7% were of other races; for 3% of the women, race was unknown. (Table 9). The abortion ratio for black women (503 per 1,000 live births) was 3.0 times the ratio for white women (167 per 1,000 live births). Additionally, the abortion ratio for women of other races (329 per 1,000 live births) was 2.0 times the ratio for white women. The abortion rate for black women (30 per 1,000 women) was 3.1 times the rate for white women (10 per 1,000 women), whereas the abortion rate for women of other races (22 per 1,000 women) was 2.2 times the rate for white women......

.....For women for whom data on previous live births was adequately reported, 39% of women who obtained legal induced abortions were known to have had no previous live births, and 86% had had two or fewer previous live births (Table 12). The abortion ratio was highest for women who had three previous live births (285 per 1,000 live births) and lowest for women who had one previous live birth (194 per 1,000 live births).....

....For women whose age and race were known, white women had a slightly greater percentage of abortions in the youngest (<19 years) and oldest (>35 years) age groups compared with women of black or other races (19% versus 17% and 12% versus 10%, respectively)....

.....Overall, abortion ratios and abortion rates have declined over time .... http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5212a1.htm

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I don't believe this is a race issue, but an issue of socioeconomic factors.

2. Take two women one white and one black each living in a household with an income >$100k and you'll find the likely hood of each having an abortion to be the same.


1. Take two women one white and one black each living in a household with an income <$30k and you'll find the likely hood of each having an abortion to be the same.

Compare the first white woman to the second black woman and you get a disproportionate number of black woman having abortions because a disproportionate majority of America's poor are black. Thus you get the statistics which stock_diesel presented.

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/psrh/full/3809006.pdf

not so sure that it isn't a race thing b/c stats reflect many more black women having abortions then any other race... additionally - women already with children are having more abortions than women with no children....

That's the whole point of my post. Yes superficially it appears to be a race issue, but race isn't the only variable.

If you want to isolate race as a variable then all other variables must remain constant, so in order to determine if race is an issue one would have to compare women of multiple races lets say white, hispanic and black with all other things being equal thus income level, education level etc would have to be the same.

If you do the above you'll find that race is not a factor. The reason more black women are having abortion is because they constitute a disproportionately large percentage of poor people in the US.

Thus, one of the most important factors determining if a person is going to have an abortion is economic not the color of that persons skin. Other factors that come into play is religiousness, marital status, etc.

good post wolf and i again agree with much of it... however, you in no way represent the majorities, and actually, if stats were done on mindsets i am inclined to think/believe you would fall into a VERY small percentage and ya might even be considered a tree hugger (j/k)... in my heart, i am not in favor of abortion but unitl we locate the answers and begin to employ them and address the masses already here, i tend to think/believe that abortion is exercising some responsibility b/c the last thing we need is more minority children, b/c as sd said we are selfish and the children are the ones that are and will continue to pay for our selfishness....not to mention, history reflects having more folks on the planet isn't making things any better and our prisons are already over filled with children that society could care less about...

ok i see what you are saying now and i agree...

hardly a tree hugger here...and while I may not represent a majority--remember what I said when society falls or whatever--I may not represent a voice of authority now--but someone else with different views will probably take over and be in charge after all these fools in power now screw the pooch over... It happens all too frequently in history....look at Germany--when their society and government failed them Hitler who had a way-out of the norm view and offered a simple obvious "solution" he could sell, easily rose to power with his well phrased words..and the masses of asses followed him and allowed the worse to happen. I, and people who think like me, won't neccesarily be like Hitler when we take over...but I'm saying that when society reaches an exhaustive point then the "new ideas" will come to favor....I'll be the one driving the new LExus...

Abortion is an excuse no matter how you cut it--its an excuse for selfishness and irresponsibility..and we can agree to disagree but I don't see how ignoring that fact will make things better. You wanted answers--I've provided the answers cut-rate and directly...they may not be liked or pleasing but they are undeniably the truth of the matter.

"The last thing we need is more minority children b/c...children will pay for our selfishness..." The problem is folks still look at division...they still look at this as 'minority children' or white children, black children--and THAT is what we end up teaching kids by our examples of selfishness and to say such a comment about "minority children"... That teaches separatism and intolerance and "who is better then who"...it shows that a black kid is crap and a white kid is better...and that is such BS.. The ONLY difference between human beings is the skin color and mindset perception of others....otherwise we are ALL exactly the same. You don't see Great Danes fighting Collies cause they are "different"...they are all dogs..its so blatently obvious at how separation is all in folks minds.. It does not go towards teaching unity and acceptance and learning to look beyond the surface... The statistics may show some racial bias if they are skewed that way...but its the practice of such thinking that reinforces it. This teaches kids they are "less" then worthy...and that is not the lesson to teach...is it? Like I said--you wanted answers to the problem and I've provided them...its not a matter of appeal or convenience...its a matter of fact...


On a sidenote--I notice you and Amo talking about Race and Stats--well you are neglecting to note that Stats can be made to say whatever you want them to say... There are countless ways and people who maniupulate statistical numbers and polls all the time to bias a view or favor a view...they do this by skewing the eligble numbers or answers or by wording the questions carefully...and so many other ways. If you wanted to get technical you could even say that since all these abortions are done by, and ALLOWED by, Women that women are exclusively heartless and prone to killing their children--and perhaps society should take that right or power away from such an irresponsible group of people.. So for point of argument and conjecture, you could turn the statistics towards a Sexist issue just as easily if you alter the statistical arguments and focus as such... My point is--don't focus on the symptoms and pains of the issue--focus on the disease issue itself..

-w

Wolf I basically agree with everything you have said. When it all boils down to it it's about personal responsibility. Period.

ah c'mon wolf even fox climb/hug trees so you gotta try it atleast once ...spent much time up in em as a young one (and still do climb up and hang out in em periodically but not many good climbing/hugging ones left)....have a scar on one of my hips from tree racing > first one up and first one to fly down from top so i won that race in record time

anyway - actually had not been thinking about aspect of your post in bold, which is an aspect i have employed more for our political system etc... so seeing this reminder here has me saying n/m with my argument b/c the same does apply cross the board.. and i know stats/numbers can be tampered with and take all of em with a grain of salt....think there was an election that served to prove this fact and in a very big way

yep and imo as long as there is breath there is always hope that this will become the way of the future!!

i get what you are saying BUT unfortunately until something within society shifts it is the child that will pay for the parent's lack of responsibilty all the way down the line.. and yes, you are right in that 'some' children that grow up in an environment as a mistake certainly are not too quick to repeat that cycle.. however, there is another story that you would not know unless you grew up in that kind of environment...

#1 many that have children that are mistakes don't put them up for adoption.
#2 many times the parents don't stay together.
#3 many single mothers cannot support the children
#4 many times a child (or children) that grow up in an environment like this are separated from mother and siblings, and then bounced from one place to another.. some are lucky and are reconciled with mother and other siblings down the road, but either way there is a price to pay for those that are and those that aren't...

the list goes on but just based on just these 4 aspects - would you in all honesty wish this on a child just so the parents or one parent (usually the mother) can learn some sort of lesson and live by some sort of moral standard that you think/believe is correct??

oh and btw >> many parents that have mistakes rarely get that lesson and go on to have more....

I agree except in some extreme cases like the one you mentioned. I wouldn't trust the government to make decisions like that for a woman. Just the denying an abortion thing would be too much. Insisting on a mastectomy could work though. I've got an ex-girlfriend and long time friend who had 3 kids in under 3 years, and none of them are twins. They were all mistakes, but the last one was conceived through birth control pills and a condom, so in some cases an abortion could be viewed by a government as being used for birth control, when in reality the potential parents have done everything in their power to prevent pregnancy. Now, my ex is somewhat religious and would never have an abortion (not sure if the two thoughts are related, actually) and when she gave birth for the third time, she decided to have her tubes tied. Another pregnancy would have had a good chance of killing her. OK, so this isn't an abortion story, but it very well could have been, and if she had had any or all of her fetuses aborted, I would have supported her in her decision.

That being said, my mom has clearly been around a while longer than I have, and she's a nurse, so she's been in hospitals longer than I've been alive. She's known countless people who have had abortions, and she says she hasn't met one who didn't regret it. However, we find that when a woman has a natural miscarriage, she usually undergoes the same empty, lonely feelings. This by no means makes abortion wrong or means that we should pass any legislation to try to ban it. The governments of the world should keep their hands out of women's uteri, but anyone considering an abortion should make absolutely certain that they think it's the right choice.

Pro Life for sure!

fireopal fireopal fireopal...

"What does not kill us makes us stronger....".

Life is not easy..life is not supposed to be a cake walk of easy outs and support groups singing Kuumby-Yahh..and no matter what we do as a society there will always be hardships and those hardships make people stronger and better--and make society better for having people who can endure. Life is full of lessons---but the big theme to society is how can we circumvent those hard lessons and just kick back and party and not care. I think having such a forced or required attitude towards human life and personal responsibility makes everyone a stronger and better person. If a mom or dad has to be forced to stand up and be responsible for something they did and they have to be held accountable--boo hoo hoo is my response..

#1-4 I went thru--my dad took off right after I was born cause he didn't wanna be a dad...my mom just struggled...and I was bounced from grandparent and around....mom was often 'not there' as she had work and other responsibilities--It did not make me any less of a person goin thru all that...in fact it made me more indepndant, more self reliant, smarter to take care of my own things and also have a direct understanding of personal resposibility and accountabilty for my actions. The fact that my mom muscled up and took responsibiilty taught me to take responsibility by example.. You're not sayin little ole ME is not a strong, independant, smart and well versed person from all our talks now, are ya??

We can argue the pity-party of "what-ifs" and "why's" til the cows come home (moo!) but the main argument for self responsibility still has no reasonable excuse, no matter how many summantic games we play. Maybe I'm too much of a hard-@$$ or expect too much from folks to be not so selfish and perhaps a bit more responsible for their own actions--but IMO if a person does not have self responsibility or takes responsibility for their own actions--then the greater society as a whole suffers moreso then is worth the minor inconveniences of a few who try and skirt around everything but their own selfishness.. JMO of course my dear...

-w

i hear ya but you are talking a very small percentage, and as the usa reflects there are obviously not all that many that actually do come through the other side better/stronger for the experiences, and if they did then we wouldn't be up against so much bs imo... and you were one of the lucky ones that got bounced within the family/friends circle b/c what i was talking about was being bounced from foster homes/charity institutions etc, which is very different and is not something any child should be subjected to imo

what if you were aborted?????

end of discussion

then I would be with God...don't we want more souls to be with God?

-w