Learn about true Islam. - Page 2

The Bible was written by many different people over a period of a couple of thousand years - it is a chronological history of many peoples. FORGET about trying to rub the vile sections in our faces because ANY dyed-in-the-wool-Christian knows to REJECT the harsh lessons and violence in the earlier books (ie:; eye for an eye punishments, etc). The teachings of Christ expect you to use some common sense and KNOW that that crap does NOT fit in with the LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR theme of Christianity.

The Koran, on the other hand, was written (dictated) by only ONE PERSON - Mohammad - complete with all of those murderous phrases. He commanded it - no one else is to blame.




Or am I wrong...... and how?



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no doubt our bible was written by a group of men >> kings in england to be exact lol....also not sure about the koran's origins but thought i read something about some debate surrounding its completeness (lost transcripts etc) much like our bible.... and i believe the koran dates back to around the same time frame as the bible - maybe earler compilations.. although, our bible didn't really get put together until it hit england so that would be much later, whereas, i think the koran was more complete sooner but someone from this culture would probably be better able to answer this, or a search on the web would probably provide this info too....

and hey - kinda think having one person dictate/write something mighta been the best way to go b/c we have had way too many hands with thier own agenda/perceptions etc on our holy book for sure

ps - did a quick search and based on the following from wikipedia it looks like there are a couple of schools of muslim thought about the koran and one school seems to subscribe to this >> "Muslims regard the Qur'ān as a continuation to other divine messages that have started with those revealed to Adam - the first prophet..."

Kings of England? England was a Roman outpost for a long time after all of the books were written.

Never heard of any controversy about the origins of the Koran. Only Mohammad wrote the Koran. Have you read it? It is far different from the Bible. It's not a historical text - it's a set of rules for living.

Here's chapter 62 in it's entirety:
Still griping about Jews.....

If it is confusing, Mohammad also wrote a much larger book called the Hadith. It is an explaination for every line in the Koran. In it he has what he meant and includes parables to illustrate the definitions.


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We use the King James Bible written in 1611. Several of the books in the bible have changed in meaning over time and the bible being consider a static form instead of dynamic is a fairly modern convention.

are you kiddin me you dont know $hit about islam lemme ask you this are you a muslim ?

just read this on CNN

DUBLIN, Ireland (CNN) -- At a recent debate over the battle for Islamic ideals in England, a British-born Muslim stood before the crowd and said Prophet Mohammed's message to nonbelievers is: "I come to slaughter all of you."

"We are the Muslims," said Omar Brooks, an extremist also known as Abu Izzadeen. "We drink the blood of the enemy, and we can face them anywhere. That is Islam and that is jihad."

Anjem Choudary, the public face of Islamist extremism in Britain, added that Muslims have no choice but to take the fight to the West.

"What are Muslims supposed to do when they are being killed in the streets in Afghanistan and Baghdad and Palestine? Do they not have the same rights to defend themselves? In war, people die. People don't make love; they kill each other," he said. (Audio slide show: Preying on Britain's young Muslims)

But in the same debate, held on the prestigious grounds of Dublin's Trinity College in October, many people in the crowd objected.

"These people, ladies and gentleman, have a good look at them. They actually believe if you kill women and children, you will go to heaven," said one young Muslim who waved his finger at the radicals.

"This is not ideology. It's a mental illness." (Watch 'No chance in hell' )

continued....

'Foreign policy has a lot to do with it'
This war of words is part of a larger debate going on in Britain -- the war within the Muslim community for the hearts and minds of young people. The battle of ideas came to the fore again this week when the trial began for six men who are accused of an "extremist Muslim plot" to target London on July 21, 2005.

The Woolwich Crown Court was told the men plotted to carry out a series of "murderous suicide bombings" on London's public transport system, just 14 days after the carnage of the July 7 London bombings, which killed 52 commuters and four bombers.

While Islamic extremists are believed to be a tiny minority of Britain's 1.6 million Muslims, they have no problem having their criticism heard. They have disdain for democracy -- and, most of all, the Bush administration's war on terror policies.

A poll taken in June 2006 for the Times of London newspaper suggested that 13 percent of British Muslims believe the July 7 London bombers were martyrs.

"Foreign policy has a lot to do with it," said Hanif Qadir, a youth worker and a moderate voice for Islam in Walthamstow, one of London's biggest Muslim neighborhoods. "But it's the minority radical groups that use that to get to our young people."

In August, British police descended on Walthamstow, saying they had foiled a conspiracy to blow up a dozen U.S.-bound airliners with liquid explosives. That set off the biggest security alert since the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. Police arrested 24 people in connection with the alleged terror plot, although one man was released after it was determined he was an innocent bystander.

Britain's Scotland Yard and MI5 have also said they are aware of at least 30 terrorist cells and potential plots inside Britain.

'Blowing people up is quite cool'
Young Muslims are easy prey, Qadir told CNN, because they believe the British government crackdown has scapegoated them because of their religious beliefs. The youth also can empathize with those who castigate the Bush administration.

There are some who believe "blowing people up is quite cool," Qadir said.

Qadir asked them why that was justified.

"The answers that I got back is: When a bomb goes off in Baghdad or in Afghanistan and innocent women and children are killed over there, who cares for them? So if a bomb goes off in America or in London, what's wrong with that?" he said.

Qadir is trying to get mosque leaders, many still practicing the tribal traditions of Pakistan, to communicate with the younger generation. But he says it is an uphill battle when radicals like Choudary dominate the debate, getting their faces -- and their message -- out in the public.

"Our scholars ... are not coming out of their holes -- their mosques and their holes -- to engage with these people. They're frightened of that," Qadir said.

The message of extremism can also thrive among youth who see no way out of ethnic ghettos.

"They're into all kinds of vices -- street crime, gun crime, drugs, car theft, credit card fraud. But then now you've got another threat," Qadir said.

"The new threat is radicalism. It's a cause. Every young man wants a cause."

Activist calls for Islamic law
Choudary, whose group Al-Mahajiroun disbanded before the British government could outlaw it under its anti-terror laws, spoke to CNN and made clear he wants to see Islamic law for Britain.

"All of the world belongs to Allah, and we will live according to the Sharia wherever we are," said Choudary, a lawyer. "This is a fundamental belief of the Muslims." (Watch a call for Islamic law )

Asked if he believes in democracy, he said, "No, I don't at all."

"One day, the Sharia will be implemented in Britain. It's a matter of time."

Choudary cited the videotaped "will" of one of the London subway bombers, Mohammed Sidique Khan, who said, "Until you stop the bombing, gassing, imprisonment and torture of my people, we will not stop this fight."

Choudary said he sides strongly with that statement -- "we have everything we need in those wills" -- and he cited passages from the Muslim holy book, the Quran, that he says justify jihad.

"I happen to be in an ideological and political war," Choudary said. "My brothers in al Qaeda and other Mujahedeen are involved in a military campaign."

While Choudary and other radicals continue to try to spread their beliefs, others say there is no justification for jihad in England. Imam Usama Hasan memorized the Quran by the time he was 11 and at 19, he briefly fought in Afghanistan against the Soviets.

"If you have the wrong intention, you can justify your criminal actions from any text -- whether it's the Quran or Bible or Shakespeare," Hasan said.

He said it makes him "furious" when radicals quote the Quran out of context to justify killing of innocents. It's a "very tiny" minority with such beliefs, he said, but "it only takes a handful, of course, to create devastation."

"Many people are terrified of Muslims. They are terrified of a brother walking down the road with his eastern dress and his hat and his beard, because they have seen these images associated with suicide bombers," he said.

"It is up to us to dispel that fear -- to smile at people to tell them that ... the message of Islam is not about bits of cloth. It is not about the beard or head scarf or the face veil or violence. It is about peace."

will only say that i have had a hard enough time trying to figure out what our holy book means, let alone trying to figure out what some other culture's holy book means.... however, based on what you have posted, i think i get what is being said, and imo it's not much different than some things written in our on bible that concern hypocrisy and/or a reprimand of some sort directed to those that are either not of the faith and/or are of the faith but do not apply/live it in some way... but again - someone who was raised with this book would know better than either one of us what it really means...

No claim to any religion. I have had enough business dealings with Arabs in their home turf to know written contracts mean nothing to them even after signed, delivered and letters of credit exchanged. But, that's a different story....

So, are you going to enlighten us with what Canadians think it's all about?
Give us the full poop.


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Figure out the bible? Like I said, "ANY dyed-in-the-wool-Christian knows to REJECT the harsh lessons and violence in the earlier books (ie:; eye for an eye punishments, etc). The teachings of Christ expect you to use some common sense and KNOW that that crap does NOT fit in with the LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR theme of Christianity."

I don't claim Christianity as my guide - Then why do I know the above REJECT statement when it seems like the overtly devout don't? Don't tell me it's too complicated?......




still no word from beylerbeyi......
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Well, I've heard about what goes on middle-eastern TV, and how great something called saharda is. I see at least 6 stories daily about something going to hell regarding the people there too.

Today:
But we don't know any better. Just about everyone on this thread is descended from apes and pigs, right?

First I am not Arab, your hatred toward Arabs, or bad business practices do not concern me?
Second As I said earlier, nothing I say, will change your mind. And I am not a scholar so I need to research all the questions you are asking ( I am sure you are happy "heyyy me got Muslim who cannot answer my questions I Won") And I have full time Scholl, full time job, buying and selling cars, real estate, stocks and a family so no thanks I am not going to try to turn you into believer :-
Your religion is yours (or whatever you believe) my religion is mine, If for you I am a bad person so be it. If (Big If) you want to learn real Islam try not to look with hate, when you read from Koran look into why it is there, for what purpose is been send. Nothing but nothing (history, religion, nationalism etc.) matters if you do not have good hearth to try to find truth without attacking others.
I sincerely wish you good luck in whatever you believing but if I have time one day at least several hours, I would like to try to build a defense towards your attacks.

It's not hate, it's awareness. The world has things that need explainations. Do you deny different societies do & believe things that go against your very existence?

You have avoided the topics in post #20.
You say you are not Arab. Are you Muslim? I have an aquantance that is Lebanese-Arab Christian. Even he clams up about these subjects even though he doesn't perscribe to the Arab AND/OR Muslim ethic we want to know more about.

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you know beylerbeyi was pretty clear with his post so you may wanna re-read what he said... and in the mean time - if you are gonna bring this bs here then the least you can do is educate yourself and learn what in the hell you are talking about... you were real quick in giving not one but 2 reminders that the old testament in the bible needed to be dismissed, so what makes you think/believe that there aren't aspects that apply to the koran as well?? not to mention, you seem to be conveniently forgetting that there are extremists in every walk of life and the muslim faith is no different....and whether you realize this or not, your posts/attacks seems to be demonstrating that you are much like the extremists that you are condemning, and are also taking the words written very literally...

here is just one aspect of an interpretation that i would imagine didn't even enter your little pea brain b/c you like most of us have no real understanding for this culture's ways, or what was really going around the time that this mhammad added his spin to some older doctrines... did a quick search just to show you your ignorance here so check this>


jihad: Often mistranslated "holy war," especially against the West, the more accurate Arabic meaning is "struggle." Jihad is the struggle to control one's lower instincts. Jihad also means to use a fair war to give a nation freedom of religion if all other means fail. Islam's main proclamation is "No compulsion in religion" Koran 2:255. The Afghani Mujahideen (those who do jihad) fought against the atheist Russians to keep their freedom of religion. Unfortunately, chaos ensued.

http://www.islamfortoday.com/adi02.htm

"MAKE THE MEAN MAN GO AWAY!"..... Have you assumed the role of his Mommy?
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Pea-Brain? I asked some pretty straight-forward questions that now suddenly YOU have gone from a self-admitted know-nothing to armchair expert. I wanted a Muslim's perspective on MUSLIM BELIEFS AS WRITTEN, not yours, what ever the hell you are......

Mohammad wrote the Koran. I don't think that for someone WHO WAS as accomplished A KILLER as was Mohammad throughout his ENTIRE life would allow ANYBODY to "DISMISS" anything he has commanded.

Instead of Cracking Wise why don't you crack a book or two on the subject.
Here are three:
Koran
Hadith

And from a former Muslim....
Why I Am Not a Muslim by Ibn Warraq (He gives us the UGLY truth)

Ibn Warraq now lives in the U.S. and I applaud his honesty as to what he saw as a BIG PROBLEM. AND HE REJECTS IT!!!
If there is an HONEST movement by Muslims to reject Terror by "Selective" acceptance from the Koran - GREAT!! But, you are living in a faery Tale World that WILL be Wrought with internal conficts because of it.


islamfortoday? Try again.
What they don't tell you is Muslim children are taught in SCHOOL that Jews are in conflict with Muslims Because ISRAEL EXISTS. All maps in their schools in the MidEast show the region WITHOUT ISRAEL. Open for interpretation or are you going to put a happy face on it?





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am expert enough to know that you are clearly not reading or understanding what folks have posted here in your own lauguage >> ENGLISH b/c if you did then you would have seen in my last post that i clearly stated that i did a quick search for some info so that in no way makes me an arm chair expert, as you seem to have that area covered

news flash and since you do seem to be clueless >> i kinda doubt that any muslim here will waste their time with your blatant anger/hatred/attacks, so best take a page from my expert book and go to google and really try to find the answers for your own questions cuzz i think they be there BUT you will probably havta open that closed mind to let any information in that may contradict what you seem to wanna think/believe.. so now i be done communicating with you and you can knock yourself out with your bs

ps - since you did post early on that you seem to prefer logical facts lemme remind you of a FACT concerning your last statement about not wanting my imput... if you didn't want it then ya shoulda maybe thought to bypass responding to my post to another member and involving me with whatever your plight here with this topic is >> http://www.hotstockmarket.com/forums...7&postcount=21

I must accept you are good. See instead of doing all the things I mentioned before (school, work, family etc.) I feel I have to sit down and write you an answer. I might be wrong but I do not think anything I wrote will change your ideas, but I am writing just in case some other people reading it may change their view of Islam. I am sure after explaining al this stuff you will come up with more, but hey!! I cannot give you more time than I give to my wife (considering the butt kicking I’ll have), so take it easy ;-)
First thing Hz. Mohammad was an illiterate man who couldn’t read nor write. (In case you have problem with that the famous classical Greek poet Homer was blind and hence couldn't read or write either. But he composed one of the most famous pieces of literature) Entire Koran was written on leather, bones etc. later all the writing was combined and verified by those who memorized it.
Too many questions little time and energy to answer, (By the way you don’t need to learn Arabic to learn Koran that is why there are scholars, experts in Arabic and religion whose you trust). What you are asking is been asked thousands times and answered thousands times. I’ll just write down here so you can decide (some or all copied from various sources)


Time and again, over and over and over again, I either read or hear from people that Islam calls for the murder of "infidels," or all those who are not Muslim. This perception is so pervasive, so entrenched, and I really do not know from where it comes. Yes, there are Muslims who do believe this: 19 of them crashed three planes into the World Trade Center and Pentagon, killing nearly 3,000 of my innocent American brothers and sisters. But, I don't know from where they got this idea. "It is the Qur'an, you idiot!!!" I am quite sure some of you just screamed that to your computer screen. Really? Where? I do not know of one verse which directs the believers to kill all "infidels." Yet, I am constantly reminded of the contrary, such as this verse:

"Now when you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks until you overcome them fully..." (47:4).

Or this one:

"O you who have attained to faith! Fight against those unbelievers who are near you and let them find you adamant, and know that God is with those who are conscious of Him" (9:123).

Or this one:

"O Prophet! Strive hard (lit., make "jihad") against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be adamant with them... " (66:73).

Yet, perhaps the "poster child" of all the verses in the Qur'an which are cited as evidence that Islam calls for the murder of infidels is this one, the so-called "Verse of the Sword":

"Slay the pagans wherever you may come upon them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and lie in wait for them at every conceivable place..." (9:5).

Case closed? Wrong. These verses have a context, and when understood in their proper context, it will become quite clear that the verses cited above are not a carte blanche for Muslims to kill all non-Muslims...

...In the Qur'an, the principle of fighting is purely self-defensive. According to all available Traditions, the earliest verses revealed with regards to fighting are these:

"Permission [to fight] is given to those against whom war is being wrongfully waged and, verily, God has indeed the power to succour them; those who have been driven from their homelands against all right for no other reason than their saying, 'Our sustainer is God!'" (22:39-40).

Along with this verse is 2:190, which says:

"And fight in God's cause against those who wage war against you..."

Thus, it is quite clear that fighting is to be done in self-defense. Now, anyone can commit acts of terror and aggression and say, "it's in self-defense." In fact, that is precisely what Al Qaeda is doing: they claim by killing 3,000 people in New York City and Washington, D.C., they are "defending" the Muslim nation against "Zionist and Crusader" aggression against the Muslims. What sheer rubbish.

The Qur'an clearly states, in the remainder of 2:190 it says:

"...but do not commit aggression, for verily, God does not love aggressors."

"Committing aggression" includes killing innocent civilians in Tel Aviv, Beslan, New York, Baghdad, or wherever. Furthermore, when the enemy ceases its hostility, fighting must cease:

"...but if they desist, then all hostility shall cease, save against those who [willfully] do wrong" (2:193).

Another verse repeats this insistence that hostility must cease when the enemy stops its aggression against you:
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"But if they [the enemy] incline to peace, incline thou to it as well, and place thy trust in God: verily, He alone is all-hearing, all-knowing! And should they seek but to deceive thee [by their show of peace] - behold, God is enough for thee! He it is who has strengthened thee with His succour, and by giving thee believing followers" (8:61-62).

Thus, even if the enemy is feigning a peaceful posture, the Muslims are still commanded to cease hostility and "place their trust in God." Thus, it is quite clear that fighting is in self-defense, and aggression is not allowed. Now, Muslims have waged wars of aggression in the past, for sure, and they even called them "jihad against the infidels" in order to justify their desire for territorial expansion. In fact, one of the most pertinent examples of this was the Ummayad Dynasty, which enacted a policy of "jihad" as perpetual warfare. But, such a policy is not Islamically correct, and as the collapse of the Ummayad Dynasty showed, not sustainable.
Are there Muslims, however, who believe that non-Muslims are "worse than trash"? Are there Muslims who cite verse 9:5 and others similar to it as justification of their acts of murder and terror? Are there Muslims who think killing innocent Westerners is "self-defense" and therefore sanctioned by Islam? Yes, yes, and yes. Does that mean that what they do is Islamic? NO! NO! NO! NO! These Muslims defame Islam, defy both the letter and spirit of its law, and are an ugly aberration of the true way of the faith. Their sins - and horrific sins they are - can never be confused for the doctrines of Islam. Islam does not call for the murder of "infidels." Now, I am frequently confronted by people who tell me, "But, Imam so-and-so says all non-Muslims are to be killed..." or "Shaykh such-and-such says that you must hate all non-Muslims..." or "Maulana whatchamacallhim said that jihad is 'holy war' against the infidel..." Frankly, I could care less about what Imam so-and-so, or Shaykh such-and-such, or Maulana whatchamacallhim says. Their words are meaningless to me. I know what God says: I am not supposed to "kill all the infidels." It just can not be any clearer than that.

I can do it too...

The good 'ole random quote out of context trick. Works every time.

"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." - Jesus

-Matthew 10:34

Another one ... for fun

And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight.

Ezekiel 4:12