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post #21 of 57

 

Arguments against Greek euro exit running thin

Commentary: A euro exit could actually spark hope in Greece

 

 

WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) — So the argument for Greece not defaulting and not exiting the euro run something like this:

A Greek default would make a pariah in international markets. A Greek euro exit would cause its depositors to flee, and leave not just the nation, but individuals and businesses with debts that overnight would jump by at least 25%.

The problem with those arguments is that they have basically come true anyway, with Greece in the euro and not yet in default. Data released Tuesday showed Greece’s economy shrank 7% in the fourth quarter.

That’s pretty awful for any time period — if measured the way the Greeks do on a non-annualized basis, the U.S. hasn’t seen that kind of drop-off since the Great Depression — but the problem is that the declines are sustained.

The 7% drop in the fourth quarter rounds out a year which saw a 8.3% downturn in the first quarter, a 7.4% hemorrhage in the second quarter and a 5% deterioration in the third quarter. Long live the glory days of the March 2010-ending quarter, when the first Greek bailout was being negotiated and the economy rose a whopping 0.4%. It’s been downhill ever since.

Of course it’s natural and even reasonable to expect a recession during austerity imposed by international creditors. Asking for a depression is another matter.

Oh, and depositors have fled: according to European Central Bank data, Greek deposits in December dropped about 20% compared to the prior-year period. And it goes without saying that Greece is a pariah in international markets.

Now the Germans and a few other nations are actually demanding what was suggested in this column somewhat facetiously — that an arrangement be made (an escrow account) so that creditors are repaid no matter what the Greeks come up with. In other words, an explicit, international bailout of Greek lenders See earlier column.

This is of course too much to ask, and the Greek population isn’t accepting the latest terms; it’s rioting instead. Yes, a hard default and a euro exit would not immediately solve any of Greece’s problems, and probably in the short term exacerbate them, though not by much.

But it would offer what is plainly not on the table now: hope.

 

 

 

post #22 of 57

 

Greece stumbles defiantly towards default

 

Bailout package in doubt as Athens refuses to give eurozone creditors the guarantees they demand.

 

Fears that Greece is heading towards the eurozone's first sovereign debt default hardened when the country's EU creditors abruptly called off an emergency meeting that was supposed to agree a €130bn bailout.

Jean-Claude Juncker, the Luxembourg prime minister and head of the eurogroup, blamed Greece's political leaders for failing to deliver on pledges long demanded of them in return for a new bailout funds.

Eurozone finance ministers last week postponed a decision on the rescue amid spiralling mistrust between Athens and its eurozone creditors.

A tumultuous weekend of rioting and parliamentary clashes then followed as the Papademos government pushed through a hugely unpopular austerity package to try to secure the money.

Last week, Juncker called another snap meeting for which was seen as a deadline for a deal. But the meeting was cancelled. Finance ministers are instead to hold a conference call before gathering for a regular scheduled meeting next Monday.

Greece will become the first eurozone country to declare sovereign default next month unless the bailout is granted. But northern European patience with the Greek government is virtually exhausted.

Among policymakers, there is a mounting sense of resignation that Greece is unable to meet its side of the bargain to facilitate the bailout, as well as a growing confidence that the eurozone is now in a much stronger position to weather a Greek default than when the crisis erupted two years ago.

"We should have everything clear on paper," said the Dutch finance minister, Jan Kees de Jager. "We don't give an inch. We want everything, a complete package … If we don't have that clear, we cannot agree with the package."

Meeting against a background of rioting in Athens on Sunday, the Greek parliament agreed to the eurozone's terms for the bailout, which would take the rescue funds to €240bn in two years.

But European exasperation has been fuelled by the consistent failure of Greek leaders to supply details on how a €325m funding gap is to be closed and by the same politicians, particularly the centre-right leader, Antonis Samaras, refusing to guarantee in writing that the deal cannot be revised following elections in April.

"I did not yet receive the required political assurances from the leaders of the Greek coalition parties on the implementation of the programme," said Juncker.

Levels of mistrust between Athens and the rest of the eurozone are at unprecedented levels. Weeks of brinkmanship have resulted in a hardening of positions on both sides, making a collapse of bailout plans quite conceivable.

Fears that the bailout was tantamount to an exercise in futility were fuelled by new data showing that the Greek economy had shrunk by 7% in the last quarter of 2011.

Juncker said he was still awaiting written undertakings from Greek party leaders on pushing through the austerity package of pay, pension and job cuts which parliament passed on Sunday as rioters torched dozens of buildings in central Athens.

Intensive talks are going on constantly behind the scenes across Europe over how and whether to save Greece. The crisis dominated a dinner outside Berlin on Monday evening for Scandinavian leaders hosted by Chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany. She is also to see the Italian prime minister, Mario Monti, on Friday.

Merkel is believed to be against allowing a Greek default but is encountering diminishing support both in Germany and elsewhere.

Under intense pressure to come up with the additional savings, Greece's prime minister, Lucas Papademos, had called a cabinet meeting to see how the €325m shortfall could be plugged.

"The clock is ticking and we have to meet this demand," said a Greek official. "We have a deadline on 20 March."

That is when Athens has to redeem €14.5bn of debt, impossible without a new bailout.

In a dramatic parliamentary vote on Sunday, Greece agreed to implement €3.3bn in cuts in return for further financial support from the EU, the European Central Bank and the International Monetary Fund. However, eurozone finance ministers, who had been set to endorse the deal last week, said Athens would still have to make more cuts after leaders backing Papademos's coalition government refused to cut pensions further.

post #23 of 57

 

Eurozone ministers cancel meeting on Greece bailout

 

Jean-Claude Juncker said he was awaiting undertakings from Greek political leaders on implementing austerity package.

 

Eurozone finance ministers cancelled Wednesday's special meeting in Brussels on Greece's €130bn bailout as Athens scrambled to provide proof that it was capable of making a further €325m (£270m) in budget cuts.

Ministers in the Eurogroup had been expected to gather for talks which, if all had gone to plan, would have approved the rescue funds to save Greece from a messy bankruptcy next month. Data released by the Greek statistics agency showed the country's economy had shrunk by 7.0% in the last quarter of 2011.

With the EU's patience with Greece close to breaking point, the eurogroup chairman, Jean-Claude Juncker, said the ministers would hold only a telephone conference call before a regular meeting already scheduled for 20 February.

Juncker said he was still awaiting written undertakings from Greek party leaders on pushing through the austerity package of pay, pension and job cuts which parliament passed on Sunday as rioters torched dozens of buildings in central Athens.

"I did not yet receive the required political assurances from the leaders of the Greek coalition parties on the implementation of the programme," he said.

Under intense pressure to come up with the additional savings ahead of the meeting of finance ministers at which Athens hopes the deal will be sealed, Greece's prime minister, Lucas Papademos, had called an urgent cabinet meeting to see how the €325m shortfall could be plugged.

As speculation mounted that Wednesday's meeting would be cancelled, a Greek officials said: "The clock is ticking and we have to meet this demand," said one. "We have a deadline [to meet €14.5bn in loan repayments] on March 20."

In a dramatic parliamentary vote on Sunday Greece agreed to implement €3.3bn in cuts in return for further financial support from the EU, the European Central Bank and the International Monetary Fund. But eurozone finance ministers, who had been expected to endorse the deal last week, said Athens would still have to make more cuts after leaders backing Papademos's coalition government refused to cut pensions further.

And in a sign of the growing distrust between Greece and its foreign lenders, political leaders were asked to commit themselves in writing to the cost-cutting reforms. Officials from Greece's "troika" of creditors have said they fear a new government may try to renege on pledges after general elections in April when hostility to austerity is also expected to grow.

The request appeared to remain a sticking point after the conservative leader Antonis Samaras, who is tipped to be next prime minister, refused to sign. Of all of Greek political leaders, he has been the most vocal in opposing the troika's fiscal remedies emphasizing their effect on deepening an already worse-than- expected recession.

On Sunday he told parliament he would back the draconian terms of the new loan agreement solely to avoid the country "leaping into the abyss" after two years of "wrong" policies that had brought it to its knees.The latest round of belt-tightening has been met with huge opposition with furious street battles erupting as MPs voted through the bill. More than 40 deputies from the social Pasok and Samaras' New Democracy rebelled, refusing to endorse measures they said would only exacerbate Greece's plight.

Greece's GDP is expected to contract by around 4% this year in what would be a fifth straight year of recession.

Racheting up the pressure, the German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schauble said Monday that the euro zone was "better prepared than two years ago" to deal with a Greek default hinting that Athens' days in the 17-nation bloc may well be numbered.

 

post #24 of 57

Greek Default Fears On Again, Off Again (NBG, GREK)



If you are watching the market news, the status of Greece is on again and off again.  It sounds like a Greek deal is no longer a sure thing and earlier today it actually looked questionable as to whether or not Greece will even get its funding for an orderly default.  On again, off again.
 
A headline from Reuters currently has it back in favor on word that the Greek conservative leader will deliver a commitment to lenders on Wednesday.  Will that last?
 
Without funding, a formal default will occur and Greece’s ability to remain in the Euro will be We have always maintained that until a deal is signed it cannot be trusted.  Even then, no matter what Germany and the rest of the European Union try to demand it seems impossible to think that Greek politicians will not get in the way after the fact even if they agree not to interfere in the months ahead.
 
ADRs of the National Bank of Greece S.A. (NYSE: NBG) are down 4.6% t $3.68; and the Global X FTSE Greece 20 ETF (NYSE: GREK) is down only 2.6% at $18.80.
 
This is a chicken and egg scenario where both parties are playing the car version of ‘chicken.’  The Greek people have gotten far too cushy of benefits for far too little output for more than a generation.  The flip-side is that you cannot blame them for having more and more taken away.  Something has to give, and frankly it sure looks more and more like the Drachma has a chance of returning.
 
Keep in mind that Greece may be too small to make a huge difference in the world these days.  Still, watch what is happening.  There are many nations whose finances are in much of the same shape as Greece, and the United States is drifting closer than many Americans would care to believe.
 
 
post #25 of 57

Please have a look..

 

http://9gag.com/gag/2681884

post #26 of 57


pretty cool

 

eye opener on the guys with the sticks being police....wow...
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Z-OldEurope View Post

Please have a look..

 

http://9gag.com/gag/2681884



 

post #27 of 57

 

Quote:

Debt Deadline: Drachma Would Be `Goldmine'

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/video/86205482/

post #28 of 57

haven't these people suffered enough?

 

Euro Zone Ponders Delay of Second Greek Bailout

 

http://www.cnbc.com/id/46395146

post #29 of 57

Not everybody in Europe collected gains going against the market ;) 

 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldFart View Post

haven't these people suffered enough?

 

Euro Zone Ponders Delay of Second Greek Bailout

 

http://www.cnbc.com/id/46395146



 

post #30 of 57

I really really LOVE Greece.

 

What a cool country.. Being there is like coming home. Have to say that.

 

And, if you walk around in the evening, in the same time you saw 1 Male, you saw 5 Females.

I dont know why it is so hmm.gifbut its ok..

 

(thinking about moving there after getting rich with forex..)

 

After they collapse what is obvious, there would be a lot of cheap land and houses.

 

 

(If i think so, what do the transnational companies think... suspicious.gif)

 

And do..

 

 

post #31 of 57

never been, but I've lived in Italy...prob about the same ( great food ) and laid back.......thumbup.gif
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Z-OldEurope View Post

I really really LOVE Greece.

 

What a cool country.. Being there is like coming home. Have to say that.

 

And, if you walk around in the evening, in the same time you saw 1 Male, you saw 5 Females.

I dont know why it is so hmm.gifbut its ok..

 

(thinking about moving there after getting rich with forex..)

 

After they collapse what is obvious, there would be a lot of cheap land and houses.

 

 

(If i think so, what do the transnational companies think... suspicious.gif)

 

And do..

 

 



 

post #32 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldFart View Post

never been, but I've lived in Italy...prob about the same ( great food ) and laid back.......thumbup.gif
 

 


 



 

Great food yes, but the Italians lead there

but.. the Greeks are much more weird, he he.

 

Italy is easy going

Greece is much more easy going.

 

Cant explain some things. You have to see it. biggrin.gif

post #33 of 57


maybe one day.....
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Z-OldEurope View Post

 

Great food yes, but the Italians lead there

but.. the Greeks are much more weird, he he.

 

Italy is easy going

Greece is much more easy going.

 

Cant explain some things. You have to see it. biggrin.gif



 

post #34 of 57

Talked about with my girlfriend today.

 

Greece as a country is the FIRST example in the latest history

whose sovereignty is taken away only because of the money. And debt ?

Officially, not hidden..

 

Imagine, someone

or better say some governments together with some private banks

would come to the Usa and say..

 

Ok, welll.. Lets see..

At first you have to cut 30 % of the anyway low wages,

 

then sell this

 

and sell that

 

and that isnt our property.. ?

Ok.. you have to sell that also.. To 'fair' market conditions of course. Thanks..

 

and yes of course, we can borrow you money to pay you debt to us with 8-10 % of interest.

 

 

but you have to excuse a moment,

we have to calculate the exact rate,

 

so you can live on the edge without riots

but not being able to ever pay back the debt because

of you interests and your economical power. (that we cut down to the right level for that with the agreements..)

So we can milk you a long time..

 

Every body here is screaming about the money, but no one

says anything about the interest. Or the economical clear cutting.

 

So if you want you money back with interests from the patient,

keep the patient alive..

 

Like the Borgs or Wraith..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

post #35 of 57

just one thing..

 

how many people..

 

 

Sometimes in the evening..

 

 

0.50..

 

 

i walked on this streets. Scary to see that.

 

Its a ancient city. Capitol of Greece. weird things happening there. EU member.

No one coulda woulda imagine that that can happen.In Europe. At the moment.

 

But, its too late for that..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

post #36 of 57

 

Tensions rise as Greek bailout drama continues

Feb. 16, 2012, 7:36 a.m. EST

 

By William L. Watts, MarketWatch

FRANKFURT (MarketWatch) — The fate of a second Greek bailout remained unclear Thursday, while tensions between Greece and its European partners remained high after euro-zone officials continued to question the commitment of the country’s political leaders to austerity measures.
 
Officials also continue to weigh delaying the release of part of the 130 billion euro ($169 billion) bailout until after the country’s widely expected April elections, reports said.
 
Although euro-zone officials are said to be looking at ways to ensure that Greece doesn’t default on a €14.5 billion bond repayment on March 20, fears of a delay served to knock down European equities and push the euro back below the $1.30 level versus the dollar, strategists said.
 
The euro EURUSD -0.38%   traded at $1.2998 in recent action, down 0.4% from Tuesday.
 
European officials “seem to face the unenviable choice as to whether to sign up to a bailout package in which they have little faith or force Greece into a risky default. ... Europe seems perilously close to the decision to take a Lehmanesque step into a decidedly uncertain future,” said James Nixon, European economist at Societe Generale.
 
A teleconference by euro-zone finance ministers late Wednesday saw Luxembourg Prime Minister Jean-Claude Juncker acknowledge that Greece had met preconditions set by European officials for the 130 billion euro bailout.
 
He said, however, that further considerations “are necessary regarding the specific mechanisms to strengthen the surveillance of program implementation and to ensure that priority is given to debt servicing.” He said a decision on the bailout would likely come at a Monday meeting of finance ministers in Brussels.
 
Troika presence?
 
News reports said European officials may demand that Greece’s troika of international lenders — the European Union, International Monetary Fund and European Central Bank — maintain a permanent presence in Athens.
 
Although Greek elections are widely expected in April, European officials have also raised the prospect of a technocratic government along the lines of Italy, with non-politicians in key cabinet roles.
 
The current interim government of technocratic Prime Minister Lucas Papademos, a former central banker, is filled by members of Greece’s socialist Pasok and conservative New Democracy parties.
 
Dutch Finance Minister Jan Kees de Jager, in an interview published in a Dutch newspaper Thursday, confirmed that euro-zone officials have weighed the prospect of holding off on delivering a Greek bailout until after the April elections, Dow Jones Newswires reported.
 
News reports on Wednesday said some euro-zone countries, including Germany, the Netherlands and Finland, were pushing for a delay in distributing part of Greece’s bailout while taking steps to ensure the country averts a default on March 20.
 
De Jager also suggested Greece could follow Italy’s path in appointing a technocratic government tasked with implementing budget cuts and reforms. “But this is all speculation,” he said. “In this option, you shouldn’t have elections in the short term.”
 
Tensions flare
 
Tensions were on display Wednesday. German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble on Wednesday questioned Greek leaders’ commitment to austerity measures and economic reforms demanded by European leaders as a prerequisite for the second bailout.
“When you look at the internal political discussions in Greece and the opinion polls, then you have to ask who will really guarantee after the elections that Greece continues to stand by what we are now agreeing with Greece,” said Schaeuble. He also warned Greece against turning into a “bottomless pit” for aid payments.
 
That prompted a rebuke by Greek President Karolos Papoulias later Wednesday.
 
“I don’t accept insults to my country by Mr. Schaeuble. I don’t accept it as a Greek. Who is Mr. Schaeuble to ridicule Greece? Who are the Dutch? Who are the Finns? We always had the pride to defend not just our own freedom, not just our own country, but the freedom of all Europe,” Papoulias, who fought in the Greek resistance against Nazi occupiers in World War II, was quoted as saying.
 
Greek Finance Minister Evangelos Venizelos on Wednesday accused the country’s euro-zone partners of changing prerequisites for the bailout in an effort to drum the country out of the euro.
 
“There are many in the euro zone who don’t want us any more,” he said, according to news reports. “We are constantly being given new terms and conditions.”
 
Protests in Greece
 
Michael Hewson, senior market analyst at CMC Markets in London, said reports of fresh demands have raised questions in investors’ minds about Europe’s commitment to keeping Greece in the euro zone.
 
“These conditions give the impression, wrongly or otherwise, that EU officials are trying to force Greece out by putting conditions in place that they know the Greeks would never agree to,” he said.
 
Meanwhile, the heated rhetoric between Athens and its partners marks an intensification of tensions that have been simmering since the Greek debt crisis began two years ago. Protesters outside the Greek parliament last week burned a German flag, while a right-wing Greek newspaper depicted German Chancellor Angela Merkel wearing a uniform and Nazi armband.
 
Some strategists, however, contend that speculation about possible delays and fresh demands likely won’t derail a deal.
 
“The only reality is there is a Eurogroup meeting on Monday, and the baseline [expectation] remains that a final deal will likely be struck,” said Padhraic Garvey, economist at ING Bank in Amsterdam. 
post #37 of 57

 

Greek president takes offense to Schaeuble comment

Feb. 16, 2012, 3:53 a.m. EST

 

By Barbara Kollmeyer

MADRID (MarketWatch) -- Relations between Greece and Germany appeared to take a turn for the worse after Greek President Karolos Papoulias launched a verbal attack against German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble. In a speech at Greece's Defense Ministry on Wednesday, Papoulias reportedly said: "I don't accept insults to my country by Mr. Schaeuble. I don't accept it as a Greek. Who is Mr. Schaeuble to ridicule Greece? Who are the Dutch? Who are the Finns? We always had the pride to defend not just our own freedom, not just our own country, but the freedom of all of Europe." The comments were triggered by a radio interview also on Wednesday, according to Dow Jones Newswires, in which Schaeuble said: "We are very well aware of our responsibility for Greece and the Greek people. As I have always said, we can help, but we can't put [money] into a bottomless pit." Papoulias reportedly fought in the Greek resistance against the Nazi occupation of the country during World War 2.

 

post #38 of 57

Ah, I never realized we had a running Greek news headlines thread.

 

So had Greece defaulted yet? I cant keep up with the news.

post #39 of 57


Just trying to collect in one place some articles on Greece.  Like it or not, but Greece financial situation does have influence on the global market and, in a way, on US market.  

No official default yet. We are only at the point where Papoulias grew some balls to step up for his people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StockJock-e View Post

Ah, I never realized we had a running Greek news headlines thread.

 

So had Greece defaulted yet? I cant keep up with the news.



 

post #40 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matrix2055 View Post

 Like it or not, but Greece financial situation does have influence on the global market and, in a way, on US market.  



 


It sure does, contrary to what the current market action would lead you to believe.

 

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