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Selling puts - Do I understand this correctly?

post #1 of 18
Thread Starter 

 

Hi all, I'm just learning about options.  I want to propose an example, written in my own words, and have someone tell me if I understand this correctly or if I made a mistake somewhere.

 

 

Basically, you sell puts against XYZ with a strike price lower than the current price because you think that in the near term the price will go down, but in the long term you think the price will go up.  In selling the puts, the buyer pays you a premium for each share.  If the buyer exercises, then he is selling you shares at the strike price, which you are required to buy.  
 
On the buyer side, he is believing that XYZ will fall further.  Indeed, buying puts is akin to shorting a stock.  For example, if you sell $18.00 strike puts at a $2 premium and someone buys them, this essentially means he thinks the stock will fall below $16.  If it does, he will exercise the puts, forcing you to buy stock at $18 and he pockets the difference.
 
Possible outcomes:
 
1) The buyer exercises the options because it's advantageous to him.  You now pay $18 (for example) for XYZ shares which are trading on the market at <$16.  Big deal though, either one is an amazing price (in your mind), plus you keep the premium, so effectively you paid $16 / share.  And now you got cheap XYZ stock with virtually 0 risk of missing out on the good deal.
2) The option expires because the buyer was wrong, it never goes down below $16.  You have spent nothing, in fact you have made money (the premium that he paid you for the put).
 
 
- Let's make the example more concrete with more numbers.  I sell 10 XYZ puts with a strike of $18 and a premium of $2.  Since 1 option contract is 100 shares, this is actually 1,000 shares worth of XYZ.  
- In order to do this, I am putting myself on the hook for potentially buying $18k worth of XYZ, so $18k of margin is set aside by my brokerage and made temporarily inaccessible to me.
- Someone purchases my 10 contracts for $2 / share, so $2k is just automatically deposited into my account and I have spent nothing yet.
- If, at any point during the option period, the buyer exercises, the shares are paid for with the set-aside margin and now I have 1,000 shares of XYZ in my account @$18 each.
- If the option expires, my margin is made usable again and I'm up an additional $2k.
 
As long as you know the price will go up long term, this is a win-win situation for you.  The way you lose this trade is if the buyer exercises the option but the stock does not recover from its low price.  
 
You make money selling puts if:
  1. The price of the stock falls, causing the buyer to exercise, and then the price of the stock goes back up.  You then have cheap stock and make money the way you normally do with stock, by selling it high.
  2. The price of the stock does not fall and the option expires, in which case you keep the premium.
You lose money selling puts if:
  1. The price of the stock plummets, causing the buyer to exercise, but the price does not recover and you're left with shit stock.

 

Assuming this is correct, my only real question is: Why would you sell naked puts with a strike higher than the current market value?  I see people doing this, generally with a very high premium.  What are the win/lose scenarios here (for both the buyer and seller of the puts)?

post #2 of 18

Selling naked puts OTM (out the money) gets you a much bigger premium.

 

You are basically making a big bet that the stock will go higher.

 

Using your example, if the stock is at $18 and you sell to open the 20 strike, you are collecting a whole of extra premium.

 

The risk is that the stock falls lower, in which case you are forced to go long. That is why you should only write put options on a stock that you dont mind holding long.

 

Win scenario: The stock goes above $20 and your option expires worthless, nom nom nom.

Lose scenario: The stock drops and you are forced to buy it. If its really tanking.. oops, thats the risk you took.

 

 

 

post #3 of 18
Thread Starter 

So let's say we've got a stock that's about $20 right now, and December 23 strike puts are selling at a $3.90 premium.  I think that the stock will be $23 by the expiration.  In this case, the best move will be for me to sell naked $23 puts.  In other words, this is a better move than selling ITM puts such as at an 18 strike or a 19 strike in hopes of simply picking up some cheap shares.

 

So let's say I sell 5 contracts.  I collect 500 x $3.90 = $1,950 immediately.  I lose if at any point during this period, the stock drops below $23 - $3.90 = $19.10 and I'm assigned, and I win if at every point during this period, the stock remains above $19.10 or I get lucky and am not assigned letting the option expire.

 

Is this correct?

 

How do we factor in the time value of money here?  For me to sell naked puts as in the example above, my brokerage is going to put a hold on $11,500.  How can I decide if that's worth the potential loss in profits I could realize from investing in other things during the contract period?

post #4 of 18

Yes you are correct.

 

Time value of money? Thats up to you to decide if you are willing to wait this out until December. If you do pull that trade off, its an impressive return for a 4month hold.

post #5 of 18

Credit spreads limit your upside and downside:

 

Like selling a spread....smae thing, but limting your rick and reward at the same time.

post #6 of 18
post #7 of 18

To estimate the Time Value of Money, just find an 'safe' instrument with an appropriate interest rate.  If you did nothing, you could put the $$ in a short term CD, 3 mo treasury, etc.  Just use those rates as a benchmark.  If you have different trades you are more comfortable or sure of, you could also use those numbers, but those are estimates of course.  I've sold naked,  keep us posted how it goes!

post #8 of 18

Meant to say: "i've never sold...."

post #9 of 18


I am confused when Stockjocke says "forced to buy it"  If I buy a call contract (1) and the stock drops will I be force to buy 100 shares at the strike price of my contract? I thought I would only be losing what I put in?

Quote:
Originally Posted by StockJock-e View Post

Selling naked puts OTM (out the money) gets you a much bigger premium.

 

You are basically making a big bet that the stock will go higher.

 

Using your example, if the stock is at $18 and you sell to open the 20 strike, you are collecting a whole of extra premium.

 

The risk is that the stock falls lower, in which case you are forced to go long. That is why you should only write put options on a stock that you dont mind holding long.

 

Win scenario: The stock goes above $20 and your option expires worthless, nom nom nom.

Lose scenario: The stock drops and you are forced to buy it. If its really tanking.. oops, thats the risk you took.

 

 

 



 

post #10 of 18

Buying a call means the right to buy the shares

 

Selling a call means selling the right to buy the shares

 

Buying a put means buying the right to sell shares at a certain price

 

selling a put means putting yourself on the hook to buy the shares

 

so when you sell an option and its exercises you either need to offer the shares at the agreed apon price (a CALL) or buy the shares at the set price (a put)

post #11 of 18

Ok . Im looking to buy a call...xyz is at $20 a share I buy a call at strike price of 25.00 at .40=$40. So this gives me the right to buy 100 shares at $25. Now before it expires xyz stock is at $50...I have the right to buy 100 shares at $25....contract is now worth  2.65=$265.Now do I need the funds in my account to do this? I know that they say only 10% are exercised and 60% are traded out...so if I dont have the money can I trade it out anytime before expiration? and pocket 265-40=$225.....

 

what scares me (if i understand correctly)  if xyz stock drops to $5 a share before expiration or after IDK....will i have to buy 100shares at $25?

post #12 of 18

1) In your example, if you owned the 25 call option for $40 , and the stock goes up to $50, you can sell your option for $2500.

The options would be $25 in the money, therefore would be worth approx $25 per contract, or $2500.

 

 

2) If you buy an option to open, you are not obligated to do anything unless the options is 2 cents in the money. Your broker will try to auto-exercise unless you tell them otherwise.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by viper4490 View Post

1) Ok . Im looking to buy a call...xyz is at $20 a share I buy a call at strike price of 25.00 at .40=$40. So this gives me the right to buy 100 shares at $25. Now before it expires xyz stock is at $50...I have the right to buy 100 shares at $25....contract is now worth  2.65=$265.Now do I need the funds in my account to do this? I know that they say only 10% are exercised and 60% are traded out...so if I dont have the money can I trade it out anytime before expiration? and pocket 265-40=$225.....

 

2) what scares me (if i understand correctly)  if xyz stock drops to $5 a share before expiration or after IDK....will i have to buy 100shares at $25?



 

post #13 of 18

im confused cause my brokers said i need to own shares first or idk....whatever..... I thought if i spend a like $1,000 is contracts thats the most I can lose? but confused if im wrong that the number of contracts i get lets say 1 so thats 100 shares..I would have to buy those shares at a higher price so I lose more than $1,000?

post #14 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by viper4490 View Post

im confused cause my brokers said i need to own shares first or idk....whatever..... I thought if i spend a like $1,000 is contracts thats the most I can lose? but confused if im wrong that the number of contracts i get lets say 1 so thats 100 shares..I would have to buy those shares at a higher price so I lose more than $1,000?


I'm just making a suggestion. Do a lot of research and have a better understanding before you attempt to trade. There is unlimited info on the net.

 

post #15 of 18

i know thanks...Ive been reading a lot on investopedia...but some information i stumbled upon is throwing me off track..

post #16 of 18

Just don't hold the options past expiration day. Then you will not be required to buy any stock.

 

In your example, your call option would have been worth $2500...so just sell the call option for a profit.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by viper4490 View Post

im confused cause my brokers said i need to own shares first or idk....whatever..... I thought if i spend a like $1,000 is contracts thats the most I can lose? but confused if im wrong that the number of contracts i get lets say 1 so thats 100 shares..I would have to buy those shares at a higher price so I lose more than $1,000?



 

post #17 of 18

well i just got and email from scottrade saying that i wasnt approved..."After reviewing your options application, we have approved your account for covered call writing.  We were unable to approve your account for options purchasing based on the following reason(s)"   I wasnt approved because of my net worth and insufficient income I put down which was somewhat true...I thought that wouldnt matter if I can afford the options contracts that I am purchasing...Just calls in this case, I can afford the premiums. I might just ask my friend to do it under his account. Makes no sense to me...

post #18 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by viper4490 View Post

well i just got and email from scottrade saying that i wasnt approved..."After reviewing your options application, we have approved your account for covered call writing.  We were unable to approve your account for options purchasing based on the following reason(s)"   I wasnt approved because of my net worth and insufficient income I put down which was somewhat true...I thought that wouldnt matter if I can afford the options contracts that I am purchasing...Just calls in this case, I can afford the premiums. I might just ask my friend to do it under his account. Makes no sense to me...



You have more options. wink.gif Submit a new application with the info they need to see or go to a different brokerage and apply there. You've heard that you should 'live within your means' so maybe you should change your trading strategies.

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